Are Morning Musume bad for Japan's image?
 

Semi serious discussion.

I've noticed that a lot of their Japanese fanbase are older 'Gentlemen'. Japan also has the thing with young girls making swimsuit video's, which gives rise to the West having that image of Pedophile Japanese men in business suits fantasizing about little girls.
Do you personally feel that as a collective MM further re-inforce this stereotype?
It can't be denied that there have been 12 year olds in the group whilst the manager is fully aware of some of the audience's they'll be performing in front of. Some past members have already lashed out (Smoking/Pregnancies etc).

So, what do you think of Morning Musume from a non fan perspective?

Naaaa.

No, not at all. I see your point, but someone have to entertain the drooling salarymen and wota too. I personally think most of H!P is tastefully done, compared to f.e.x dear my teacher by AKB48.

H!P has a wider appeal than just old men and it's shown b the widespread popularit of the project world wide ( I would think that MM/H!P is the third most popular female act after ayu and utada) they also appeal to female fans. Many of the foreign fans are drawn in by the music, H!P Is founded by great and innovative muscians, so I think there's much more to it than photobooks.

The photobooks and idol DVDs are only something that go along with the package of liking H!P/MM. Honestly though, not everyone who is a fan is in love with the constant photobook releases and stuff. Some people just probably glance at them and say "Oh, that's pretty." and shrug it off.

I don't think that it's much of a big deal that there are such young acts out there who have a large older-men fanbase. I mean, there are bound to be people like that in any fandom, it's just that MM/H!P has a larger concentration of them. But with all of the wota and crazies, there are the casual fans who sit in the family-seating that enjoy the concerts with their children and so on.. the ones who don't rip up PBs when someone has 'betrayed' them and fry the remains for the night's dinner.

H!P imo, is definitely a grand opportunity to showcase one's talent at a young age, and to say that it is bad for Japan's image is simply looking through the surface of something that is is a lot deeper than just photobooks and youngins. D:

I definitely see your point. I don't think there's much that H!P can do about their fanbase though....they pick girls to be in a group and sell stuff. They can't prevent people of a certain age group from buying the H!P merchandise...I don't particularly think that highly of gravure idols anyway (especially those who are like 14) but I haven't heard of any cases of H!P-related pedophilia. It's definitely possible (after all, Japan has the 2nd biggest porn industry in the world. Second to US. *sigh*) but so far I don't think it's anything too serious at the moment.

i don't think MM is bad for Japan's image. MM/H!P is a talent agency, where they recruit up and coming stars. it's probably the biggest female idol agency in Japan. even though there are guys that prey over the them, you can't really help it. their primary target isn't those types of people. they're supposed to be role models for young girls. though, they've been having a lot of "scandals" as of lately. :\

i'm not a fan of MM/H!P (i sway the JE way :P), but i do respect idols a lot. they go through the busiest schedules i've ever seen.

i totally agree with you, i dont exactly the whole Morning Musume thing because of their image and to be frank i dont really like there voices. I hate hate the fact that they are soo young and do alot of sexual things at such a VERY young age. I also think that they promote pedophilia with their PB's and stuff and... yeah. :P

Mini Moni was the coolest group of the H!P thing though :P

totally. I'm definately with you on this one. It's so creepy knowing older guys are getting turned on by these young girls. *shudder*

Yes. MM is a bad image for all the countries. There are a lot of girls who don't have vocal and looks a lot of stupid girls tryin' to be idols.

I'm sorry for the fans but I hate these sucked girls.

^^I have to disagree, since there IS talent in the agency (Goto Maki, Takahashi Ai, Matsuura Aya, Abe Natsumi), and even though they had to release a lot of material, they did end up NUMBER ONE in sales for a female group. Plus, they're songs are SUPER catchy.

Plus, if there really wasn't talent, they wouldn't have lasted THIS long. I mean, 10 years in the industry is a HUGE threshold, and thirty+ singles to boot. Plus have you even seen the auditions? Girls are STILL POURING in to get into Momusu.

There's no way this group will let up anytime soon. Not with the amount of chage and "scandal"s they can create. :)

I agree that they promote a sexualized image with (sometimes) very young girls. Like the photobooks with lots of bikini pictures and halters and super short skirts or shorts. I doubt they're aiming at the female fans with that type of thing!

Idols are suposed to entertain. If they don't then they clearly aren't idols. Being an idol doesnt have much to do with actual talent. You sit and look pretty and sing.

I dont live in Japan so I can't really comment on their image. I never assumed older buisness men listen to them because they where perverts. I just assumed it was the same as the boyband and britney spears effect here. young people liked their catchy beats.

I know that you're looking for a "non fan perspective", but I thought I'd throw in my two cents as well. I am an American female fan of Morning Musume. Personally, I think that a lot of girls in Hello! Project are talented, and I think that their songs are catchy. I wouldn't listen to them if I didn't think they had talent.

I don't think that Morning Musume gives Japan a bad image. Yes, they are idols. Yes, they have photobooks and DVDs. But I personally think that there are "worse" idol groups out there that could be more damaging to Japan's image. However, I think we'd need to visit Japan to see.

I know that you're looking for a "non fan perspective", but I thought I'd throw in my two cents as well. I am an American female fan of Morning Musume. Personally, I think that a lot of girls in Hello! Project are talented, and I think that their songs are catchy. I wouldn't listen to them if I didn't think they had talent.

I don't think that Morning Musume gives Japan a bad image. Yes, they are idols. Yes, they have photobooks and DVDs. But I personally think that there are "worse" idol groups out there that could be more damaging to Japan's image. However, I think we'd need to visit Japan to really judge.

IF anything, I think you might say that the ai-doru idustry as a whole is bad for japan's image. Ayu was never in H!P BUT she did bikini photos when she was baely a teen. And also at the moment only about 50% of H!P is in their early teens, many of them are above 20 and still releasing photo books. In this "departement" of H!P it's very similar to other idol artists on f.e.x pony canyon and GInza. (Aya Ueto being an example)

^^^I hate the pre avex Ayu photo shoots (That vid on a bike).

I am soo getting what you are all saying. I'm glad this thread didn't get a 'MM are love. You should shut up' response. Even fans give reasons for their answer.

I will say I don't think I'm talking to dirty old men when I come on AHN, so I'm aware that the MM fans on here aren't as I describe in my original post (Never meant as a bash to AHN fans).

I will add however, there is that 10th anniversary group with the popular members (I will say here, my first post mentioned nothing about talent. I've never denied certain members can dance and sing.) But who charts higher. Current MM with their young girl's ... or the talented edition with the girls on the wrong side of 20 for the fans I worry about?

YES. They're totally vapid, too. I watched them on an interview during PopJam while I was in Japan last month, and they couldn't even answer questions right. And then they brought back old Morning Musume Alumni, and they were stupid, too. Wow. Seriously. I get the whole nasty sexy thing, but I mean, come on. At least Koda Kumi's a relatively smart girl. She may be nasty sexy, but at least she's competent. Really.

It's disappointing that many outside, Western observers of Japanese idol culture immediately come to the conclusion that fans of this particular industry are sickos and the like. They see a middle-aged man cheering on a girl half his age (or younger), and automatically assume he is disgusting. "Why else would he be cheering for her? It's obviously not the stupid music!" These people may see Morning Musume as a reinforcement of the stereotype.

Morning Musume is a product of the decades-old Japanese idol industry. There are certainly things that do reinforce the stereotype in this industry, but from my perspective as a fan of Morning Musume, I don't believe the group is one of them. They have a rather wholesome image overall, like Petit said.

As truehappiness mentioned, there will always be crazy fans in any sort of fandom. To assume that the other fans are like this is very narrow-minded. As is taking a stereotype as truth.

This sort of mindset always makes me go :gnash:gnash:gnash as it is so superficial! Just because the musicians aren't in dark clothes playing the instruments themselves and mostly being *male* doesen't mean it's a *lesser* form of music. there are actually more people working on morning musume songs than on such band songs (as an example) and tsunku has used many very talented and amazing musicians to work with the project, not to mention he's a great and creative musician himself. F.ex for those who think ayumi had "interesting" arrangements for songs like HEAVEN and M, you should listen to some of the songs Dance*man did for momusu fex souda! we're alive (yes, I mean listen, cause you don't really have to look at the girls to appreciate the music).

Maybe the lyrics aren't always that deep, but heck, they usually fullfill their purpose completely.

Also, I think that it may come off at not so serious because the songs and MVs are often very conseptual, sometimes so much it seems like a parody, kind of like a broadwayshow. But to be honest I think that's a problem for many japanese artists. The western music business has been focusing a lot more on the "girl/boy next door" and not, like david bowie and elvis did back then, make an unatural setting and take the listener into a "different world" using costumes rather than "casual clothes". Nowadays this is found in cartoons, sci-fi and other genres that before were for nerds and children, but recently turned more and more mainstream.

Whoever say that all Morning Musume members have no talent are simply ignorant.

And no, MM is not a bad image for Japan. Japan is generally a perverted country. Don't ever blame MM.

honestly, YES! :o

The thing I dislike about the the whole japanese entertainment scene are the pre-teen girls pandering to old pervs, and how acceptable in J-pop/entertainment it is :dead2

I'm not denying that Tsunku isn't a talented pop-producers, I've liked some of his work with non-H!P artists and two H!P songs ("Sugisugite Baka Mitai" & "Some Boys! Touch"), but the whole H!P is exploiting the poor girls. the girls don't make that much money & are subjected to all sorts of rules.

H!P girls themselves have questionable talent (only a few of them I could call talented) and the whole stylistic direction of the whole H!P is really fug. with their gaudy & ridicilous costumes they look like they're stuck in the 90s.

tho fortunately I don't think H!P has that much of a effect on anything these days, seems like they're slipping further away from the mainstream each passing year. finally :yes

Yeah, those two, along with Ayumi Hamasaki and Max Matsuura are the prime examples of what it takes to get a recording/producing contract! :D

I'm not really disagreeing with your points, but this applies to ALL teen idols, not just musume, so I don't think they are in particular responsible for this so called bad image. IMO there's a reason why japanorama choose to show AKB48 when showing otaku feeding girls and not morning musume. Morning Musume probably is one of the cleanest of its kind.

As I see it, it's not really exploiting girls either. THey girls get to sing and dance in front of an audience, and only by looking at them you can tell most of them enjoy performing. Yes it's true that some families rely on these girls for extra financial support, but Japan is not a third world country and it's not like poor thai families selling their 12 year olds to a brothel for a sack of rice.

Finally, a biger portion of H!P is actually catered towards kids than you might imagine. The kirari anime and mini moni are great examples. THe problem is that no matter which demogaphic the merchandise is catered at, whoever can buy the goods including old salary men.

Old article about H!P from the UK mag Guardian

:o

.. that totally wasn't necessary o-o;

OMG. Thanks so much for the article. Seriously, Tsunku knows exactly what he's marketing them as. It is actually rather vile.

I used to think badly of MM for how they were marketed, but now I like them because they're cute. I think their fanbase is varied; people who like cute girls who sing and dance would probably like them. The generalization that their only fanbase are old, perverted men is a little narrow-minded, in my opinion. MM doesn't sing lyrics that are too deep, but that's fine.

I also think cultural differences play a huge part in the perspective of MM. Japan probably doesn't care how MM is marketed as; they probably just shrug it off. I think the West, however, thinks that when girls are marketed as that, they're the prime target for pedophiles. I strongly disagree with that. I simply believe that the group was just created for fans to have cute, bubblegum pop music.

I remember when that Guardian article was first published. Its sleezy nature, especially the stuff about Johnny's, seemed to be trying to garner a cheap pop from the readers more than informing.

I'm with Petit that H!P isn't an exploitation. These girls know what comes with the territory of being an idol, and they know there are certain guidelines to adibe by. If the rules are broken, they face the consequences. This is no different than other professions.

Definitely. The idea that an artist is not legit if they don't create, write, or compose their own music is bogus. As you pointed out, the individuals behind H!P are extremely talented. And that's not to say the girls in the spotlight aren't. They all may not be the best singers and dancers, but they are skilled performers and entertainers. Their music is just as valid as more "serious" artists.

yes they are a stupid group. Idon't understand how can people like a group that change her members every year.

I can't give a completely unbias answer in all of this for the simple fact that MM/H!P has pretty much become my favourite music group/agency whatever you wanna call it, (surpassing Ayu etc...).

I don't think they give Japan a bad image in the slightest, it's only down to the Western view of it where problems arise imo. It's not normal to see young performers in the charts etc... here in the west, and if you do it's generally some lame throwaway song.

I have purchased one photobook, Tanaka Reina's Alo Hello one, and i have to say i love it. It's tastefully done, none of the poses are really sexual, the photo's just depect her having a good time and enjoying herself for the most part.

Personally I have no qualms at all with the whole photobook section of the merchandise since idol singers have been releasing them since the 80's, it's a staple of the Idol music scene, so it's extremely unfair to target H!P for their PB releases.

Also, there's PB's are only an added part of the fandom, not a main factor by any means. I love the girls not so much for their looks, but their personalities. I don't think i've laughed so much before as when i watch clips of them on shows like Utaba or their own show's such as Hello Morning or Haromoni@. They're funny, entertaining and a complete joy to watch.

As for the music, it's been stated a few times now but there have been some talented musicians employed to work on these songs, not to mention Tsunku writing near enough every lyric. Sure, some song's may not be that deep, but then you also get stuff like Furusato which is really quite a touching song.

Also, to those who say the girls have no talent, or very little, i'm guessing you haven't seen the Ribon no Kishi musical. It opened my eye's to just how talented the group is, being able to carry a stage musical.

I'm not so surprised by this thread though at all. For the non-fans i can see how it can be slightly off putting, but half the time a lot of these people have never really given the group a proper chance or actually tried to understand the fandom beyond the whole "they're young and in bikini's" thing. Still, i'm not gonna tell people their opinion's are wrong, or that they should stfu, and i'm happy that this thread didn't descend into those types of remarks.

!!!

:thud

oh yeh, i'm completely addicted lol.

Oh, and i forgot to quote this is my last post...

This i find to be a very narrowminded comment. What may i ask makes them "stupid"? The member changing thing should hardly reflect on the musical output of the group, and this really added nothing to the discussion.

A few things. Please read.

1. Tsunku doesn't promote them, he is the man behind the music and nothing else, their management agency UP-FRONT WORKS does.

2. Pre-pubescent idols and groups of them existed long before Morning Musume was ever concieved. See Onyanko Club. And IF you must go after a group, I'd say AKB48 is even worse in terms of marketing, although I enjoy their music too.

3. Why do you care? If you think it's disgusting, then just ignore it. Do you feel the need to make yourself feel superior by attacking other people's interests? And what do you have invested in Japan? If you're not a fan of things concerning idols, you shouldn't have to worry about the "shame" involved with them and clarify this easily if someone makes the assumption.

4. Finally, the girls go into this. They're the ones that made the decision to go into this. The idol life isn't exactly not known about in Japan so the girls are quite capable of being fully aware that they're going into a business where THEY are the commodity.

Well, the whole gravure idol thing does bother me a bit, but MM are more than that, I guess. I'm not really a fan of them, but they can't exactly control who's buying their material, so I wouldn't say they're bad for Japan's image. I can't say the same for gravure idols, especially the ones on their preteens, it's kinda scary when you think what all those old men do with those pictures >_<

Hmm, I'd have to agree with both these points.

Sorry, but you had me taking you seriously up until this point. Ignorance is bliss? COME ON. That's like saying, "If you don't like pedophilia, just ignore it". I'm not saying that there definitely is that kind of thing involved in MM, but if there is ignoring it should be the last thing we do. The person you're replying to may not be a MM fan, but he/she's a Japanese music fan and MM is part of Japanese music. You don't know what really goes on behind H!P operation either, so I doubt your defenses of them are any more iron-clad than Weslicious's suspicions.

Some of you guys are plain ignorant.

Japan is a perverted world. (Go watch Kelly Osbourne show.) They have all those hentai manga and anime. Even manga and anime like Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura express sexual manners. They make all those overly sexual cosplay. They have freaking cafe shops that has "cute" dressed waitress that even do massages for their freaking clients. And so on. Why the hell are people blaming MM? Japan is ruining it's own image.

Everywhere is perverted to a certain extent. The US is home to the worlds biggest pornography industry for example.

The maid cafe's don't bother me at all... what's so bad about getting a hand massage from a cute girl in a cute dress? it's not like she's parading around nude while you drink your coffee.

Also on the cosplay side of thing, ok sometimes it can be overly sexual... but hey, the girls choose to do it themselves, they're not being forced by gunpoint to make a costume and get their pictures taken.

I've seen the Kelly Osbourne in Japan show, and the maid cafe definitely has some weird sexual undertones with all the maids acting submissive and hand massages and stuff :o

I personally wouldn't call Japan perverted, it's just very different culture when it comes to what is allowed or a taboo or whatever. and a lot of stuff is legal or allowed there that isn't in most of the western world ...

The reason I say it here is because it's complaining about it on a FORUM. if there was actually an effort to CHANGE it in Japan, I'd be saying something different.

Really now, are you going to go and do something about it? Actions talk louder than words, and until something is done to change it, maybe people could stop talking about it like they're above it yet do nothing about it.

Also, if you want me to go away, move this to the Japan forum which I don't touch. This is Asian MUSIC Chat. I follow H!P for the music. Ask any of the H!P Thread members now and they'll tell you I barely follow anymore at all. I just get annoyed when someone dumps on something when had they been, say, born in that culture the thought would have probably never crossed their mind.

I guess you can't look at it with a Western perspective. Yes, indeed, we would think that H!P does have a perverse element because of the seeming exploitation of young girls to satisfy the desires of males who are way older than them. I don't think any of us disagree that H!P does really good music. But that aside.

You got to understand that Japan has a long history of treating sex as something like a necessity in life. It's comparable to say, the need to eat, or the need to use the toilet. The Japanese treat it as such. In fact, women back in the past did not even consider breasts to evoke any sexual sentiment, which explains why they went swimming topless.

These attitudes about it being perverse are no doubt coming from us who have had these western perceptions afflicted within our minds. Of course, from our perspective, yes, indeed, this seems dangerous because of the potential danger to these girls. However, what I'm saying is that the Japanese don't treat it as such. We have no right to impose what we think on what they think, regardless of how disgusting we think they are.

You wouldn't say cannibalism was bad if you were a tribesman living somewhere in an isolated forest. It's civilization and culture that has imposed these social constructs within our minds.

Hah... It`s cool that they change singers/members but I personally dont like it :no ... And I remember one of them was seen leaving the hotel with and old guy... Ewww.. And 2 of them have their career and they act like lesbians.. Kyah >.<

Yet still remain in the top 10 for EVERY SINGLE RELEASE? Must mean something, shouldn't it?

I have to say though, when I first got into them, it was pretty confusing, but once you get the hang of it, it's actually really fun. When a new member is added, or a new group formed, then you get excited because you wanna know what the new voice sounds like, or what the new combination sounds like.

Then again, I am a fan. So my response would be biased. However, I have to say that this group is pretty much a poster child for any group, where ever in the world. No one can honestly beat Morning Musume, considering the length of their career and the amount of money they can generate.

well the rest of your post might be true but they aren't really money crapping donkeys ... most of their single may stay in the top 10 for two weeks but at the and they sell not more than 40k .. and I think that's not much to call it a fortune

^
That's only a very very small fraction of what they earn. Believe me their agency os making a lot of money.

The only thing I would have against MM is that they kind of exaggerate the whole cuteness thing, which I kinda have come to hate :laugh I guess you get used to it, but then you see all these people in the US and they just totally think that everything in Japan is like Harajuku Lovers brand clothing...it just gets annoying.

About the whole "lolita complex" mentioned above...it is really kinda disgusting, but, it's not gonna change...so...just have to live with it I guess.