Ayu : Product vs Artist and other things

[orbitalaspect]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

^About her recent lyrics from Colours and A One being as deep.

Most of the depth from her lyrics came from the fact she was singing mostly about her experiences and feelings. They were deep because she was giving her own personal insight on stuff everyone goes through, and this was where the indentification came from.

But where are these lyrics today? We've had a few of them in songs like Virgin Road and RETURN ROAD, but I'm hard-pressed to agree that any single track off LOVE again or Colours was given the same focus as really any song on MY STORY or (miss)understood. And I think we can all agree that really everything apart from GUILTY, I am..., and A Song for XX pales in comparison when looking for Ayu in Ayu's music.

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

She got a lot of shit during Party Queen/Love Again for exposing herself way too much, not being "professional", exploiting her personal life for sales. And this is pretty much what she did since day 1 of her career. From asfxx to Love Again her whole career was constructed around putting her personal conflicts on the spotlight.

There's a difference. Ayumi circa 1998 was relatively unknown, and Ayumi circa 2018 pretty much puts everything out there. I heard more criticism about the extremely odd production and huge, huge variation in genres of songs than I did anything about her divorce from Manny. FIVE was largely informed by her divorce well ahead of PQ and it was her first album in years to top Oricon for more than one week. I think PQ and La came across as low-effort releases.

And a lot of people were actually disappointed with LOVE again because they really botched the 5-months-of-releases-for-the-15th-anniversary. LOVE was pushed as a new mini-album, but when the tracklist was released, it was just a 2A with 1 B-side and 6 extra tracks, of which were 1 instrumental and two remixes for a song that had already been squeezed to promote A SUMMER BEST 4 months earlier and the original track wasn't even on the single as a b-side. Add to that that Ayu had just released FIVE the year before with FIVE PVs, but LOVE was announced with only two PVs... I just don't see how that was going to be received as a good idea. again followed the same pattern less than a month later, having four new songs, four instrumentals, and four remixes, two of which were for songs on LOVE. And then comes along A Classical, which literally which was a great release if 2 of the 8 tracks hadn't just been released on the "mini-albums" LOVE and again two months earlier.

And then comes LOVE again. An album that, by then, a lot of us were wondering if it was an album or an "album"--if it would be 7 new songs and four new interludes? ...Or 2 new versions of "untitled", 8 remixes (4 of them extended versions of tracks from NOTHING FROM NOTHING), the instrumental for "meaning of LOVE", and a hyped up hidden track that we'd later discover was just the first 15 seconds of "INSPIRE x ARMAND VAN HELDEN" looping for four and a half minutes while Ayumi sings "la-la-la-la!"

It just blew our enjoyment as fans to be hyped up for five months of one over-promise, under-deliver after another--things that weren't anywhere near the impression we were given by Ayu and avex. They said LOVE would be a mini-album, and it was just an overblown single. And then they said again would be a mini-album, and it too was just an overblown single. And then they said Ayu would do her first original classical remix album, and it was the same damn cover from LOVE and half of the tracks had already been released in orchestral versions, two of them within the last two months.

So when LOVE again came around with its total of five new songs out of 15 total tracks, and every single song was Ayumi going back and forth between actual singing and baby-talk-singing... we checked out. This is someone we all admire enough to come back to the AHS forum just to talk to people about things most of us know because we've been huge fans of Ayu. But for crying out loud, sing about something else for a song or two, please... I don't care if the next PV is of Ayu wearing a $2 million dollar Charmin toilet paper dress that dissolves in the rain just to show how Charmin breaks up upon flushing to prevent sewage blocks and protect your pipes. Just find anything to talk about. Does she love Triscuit? Has she ever been emotional over the increase in the cost of postage? Find something other than the same topic for every song on yet another major release... you know what I mean? It was bad enough at times with Love songs, felt recoverable with FIVE, then really dragged with PQ and massively dragged with LOVE again. All of those releases revolved largely around the same relationship. Someone should have tapped her on the shoulder when THANK U was sent for mixing.

I totally get that your position is "Ayu didn't follow trends and that's what makes her an artist." And I just want to clarify that I think Ayu did follow a trend: LOVE. LOVE... LOVE LOVE LOVE. CHERISH LOVE. ALL THE LOVE. PEACE AND LOVE. LOVE THIS. LOVE THAT. LOVE YOURSELF. LOVE YOUR ALTERS. It was the same one lots of fans felt was said and done and didn't need to be the main focus for at least a little bit. Four years of one song after another that is so saturated with love love love... they don't make shamwows for that. And this may have been a topic for Ayu throughout her career, but she really narrowed the variety of ways she sung about it after she met Manny in 2010. Sometimes, it seems that pre-Manny Ayu and post-Manny Ayu are two entirely different women at times.

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

Colours was a change in direction, as most of the album is pretty impersonal. A One is filled with generic love songs that don't really talk about her personal life either, and people hated them again

So, people want her to get deep, but don't want her to get personal. Want her to be artistic, but don't want her to be too bold or take creative risks. Want her to take her time to make music, but don't want her to not release something for longer than 1 year. Want her to focus her tours on the music, but want it to be grand and extravagant. Want her to do something fresh, but want her to capture her classic sound from the early 00's. And they want her to be mature, but want her to have teen angst on her lyrics.

I want her to stop doing the routine. You think she's more of an artist today, please tell me why there is ALWAYS another tour that ALWAYS looks like the last tour and ALWAYS has the same visuals and stage theatrics and over-dramatized ballad performances of the same ballads performed on every tour. But the music isn't consistent. And it's been years since Ayu committed to at least releasing a new single every six months to a year. And I can't remember the last time Ayu did something that actually surprised us as fans, like she did going to London for RnRC or when she did the PV for Sparkle or when she decided to spend a million dollars on the PV for GREEN or release the full version of Mirrorcle World as a single. There's nothing to be excited by right now or within the last handful of years. It's pretty darn predictable. Kinda like business...?

[dreamalley]

Originally Posted by orbitalaspect

I totally get that your position is "Ayu didn't follow trends and that's what makes her an artist." And I just want to clarify that I think Ayu did follow a trend: LOVE. LOVE... LOVE LOVE LOVE. CHERISH LOVE. ALL THE LOVE. PEACE AND LOVE. LOVE THIS. LOVE THAT. LOVE YOURSELF. LOVE YOUR ALTERS. It was the same one lots of fans felt was said and done and didn't need to be the main focus for at least a little bit. Four years of one song after another that is so saturated with love love love... they don't make shamwows for that. And this may have been a topic for Ayu throughout her career, but she really narrowed the variety of ways she sung about it after she met Manny in 2010. Sometimes, it seems that pre-Manny Ayu and post-Manny Ayu are two entirely different women at times.

I just died laughing.

It's true though.

[Andrenekoi]

@orbitalaspect

Just to get this out of the way: I wasn't saying your post was contradictory about Ayu, I was saying it was contraditory on the concepts you used. When you try to please the consumer more to have better sales you are being more of a product than you are when you are doing whatever you want. I'm not saying being a product is worse than being an artist or whatever, just that the concepts are different. Actually, art is always more of a risk of being polarized than products, as art isn't trying as hard to please.

In that sense, Ayu is acting more as an artist now than she was while trying to please during her peak. And she herself said she was trying to please at the time, it's not just an idea I had.

I like to see Love Songs~Party Queen~LOVE again as a trilogy were Ayu discuss her views and understanding of love.

Love Songs: She is singing about her idealized views of love as someone who sacrificed herself to reach her dream, but doesn't have much of a personal life. It's about her projections on how romantic love is. As it reflects her personal views on the subjects, it's a personal project.

Party Queen: This one is about her divorce, how she tries to drink and party her suffering away. On how her divorced hurted her and how her relationship with her parents affected her views on love. I don't really know how people don't see this as her most personal record to that, considering it's the only one where she openly discusses her issues. Letter, Return Road, Tell me why, the next LOVE and E.S.M. are all painfully open about stuff that happened to her.

LOVE again: This one expresses her conclusions about love after her idealistic views of love felt apart and she divorced. It pretty much describes the whole process of falling in love, having your heart broken, healing and fall in love again. Even so, the album starts with a song that makes it clear the relationship would fail (Wake me up) and it ends with her entering on another relationship that will fail again (You & Me). It's her album with the less hopeful ending, as she ever tries to end all of them on a lighter note. In between you have songs like SAKURA, Ivy, Sweet Scar, Wake me up, Untitled for her 2, etc that are again all very personal.

She was doing the same thing she ever done: Putting her personal issues on the spotlight. You don't think that love life, divorce, her biased views on romantic love and how wrong they were, the relationship examples she had at home, how the public views on her changed due to her love life are interesting themes? That's ok, you don't have to. Still, at the moment they were important to her and still were highly personal.

Colours and A ONE weren't very personal and I myself said that on that post. You have 2 or 3 more personal songs on each album, but in general it was mostly damage control after the huge backlash she got.

M(A)DE IN JAPAN: Again she gets more personal on this one. I remember reading she saying this album was about how japanese culture tryed to restrict her as an artist (what explains the cover and the way the A is stylized on the title). It's a very short album, but it expresses her views on the japanese society (Flower, Mad World, Survivor), the obligatory concert ending, summer song and love message to the fandom songs (Today, Summer Love, You are the only one), a song for her them husband that was axed from concerts once the relationship ended (Mr. Darling). How much of the album is personal depends on how sincere you believe she is when she is singing Today and You are the only one. :B

About the PVs, IMO they were always hit or miss anyway, I'm not very found of her videography. Still, her videos got more experiemental after 10th anniversary. Do I think yhe experiements are always succesful? Nope. But this is just the nature or experiementing, it has a higher chance of failure. Still don't get the indiference/hatred for how beautiful you are, progress, Melody, the Love Again trilogy, Sweet Scar, WARNING, Sayonara, Step by step, FLOWER and Mad World as they are IMO either beautiful, deep or really creative.

I also don't get the disdain for AT12, AT15 and AT16. They all use theater as a media for her to discuss her views on love, her career and her relationship with the japanese society. I don't even get the complaints about the concerts being visually alike. I also love how AT12 and AT16 actually loosely tell a whole story from beginning to the end, something that actually needs a lot more creative effort than she is credited to put on her stuff lately. I do agree jtb isn't that good, but her celebratory concerts IMO tend to be her worst anyway, but AT12, AT15 and AT16 are probably her tours with the most depth to date.

I'm thinking about opening threads to discuss the concepts from her post Love Again releases, like the ones I once did for her albums until LOVE again.

[xLuna&1LOVE]

Andrenekoi, how many people fit in your polyamorous group? Can I join too?

I wish I could pay more effort in my post, but I am not writing essays on my phone and am really busy with graduating. Sorry. But I think it is very interesting to read!

[Andrenekoi]

Originally Posted by xLuna&1LOVE

Andrenekoi, how many people fit in your polyamorous group? Can I join too?

I wish I could pay more effort in my post, but I am not writing essays on my phone and am really busy with graduating. Sorry. But I think it is very interesting to read!

The more, the merrier :B

[mi|kshake]

I totally get that your position is "Ayu didn't follow trends and that's what makes her an artist." And I just want to clarify that I think Ayu did follow a trend: LOVE. LOVE... LOVE LOVE LOVE. CHERISH LOVE. ALL THE LOVE. PEACE AND LOVE. LOVE THIS. LOVE THAT. LOVE YOURSELF.

If you pardon the pun, I LOVE this! I love Ayu but this is very true both of her any many other artists (I think this is why I don't really pay attention to lyrics tbh!)

[ayu_ready?]

Originally Posted by Katsuyuki012

I might be wrong but especially with japanese artists people seem to keep pressing the "retirement" button.
(I would not even think about retiring at 39 lol!)
But tbh it feels weird, so often people say how she should basically just retire but then I also adore much older artists where we people just let them do their thing. People still complain too but they don't go like "xy goes downhill/peak is over she should stop/earn money" but let them just have fun. Ayu, like many artists after their peak doesn't do it (she also doesn't have to lol) for money but for fun, passion etc..

I wasn't talking about retirement or her age, I was talking about her health, like how she could stay in the industry with her health condition, whatever

[orbitalaspect]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

@orbitalaspect

Just to get this out of the way: I wasn't saying your post was contradictory about Ayu, I was saying it was contraditory on the concepts you used. When you try to please the consumer more to have better sales you are being more of a product than you are when you are doing whatever you want. I'm not saying being a product is worse than being an artist or whatever, just that the concepts are different. Actually, art is always more of a risk of being polarized than products, as art isn't trying as hard to please.

In that sense, Ayu is acting more as an artist now than she was while trying to please during her peak. And she herself said she was trying to please at the time, it's not just an idea I had.

I understood that, which is why I wrote that I think Ayu did follow a trend: LOVE. LOVE LOVE LOVE. FEEL THE LOVE-GO-ROUND. It just really, really shows a lack of diversity in the topics she's singing about these days. I'll give you that MIJ and Colours were different, and I think that's why I still look at Colours as one of my guilty pleasures. (And because I honestly love that Ayu did a track with RedOne, and that LICO and her did a not-so-boring PV for once.) My idea of not being a product is evolving the creative outlet. Dan Brown isn't only as good as his first novel. Britney Spears isn't only as good as her first two albums.

I understand that not every album is going to land -- it's bound to happen at some point that every artist will flop a studio album -- but I think having 7 straight years of that is a trend. In analytics, we generally look at anything abnormal in data that happens two or more consecutive times to be "trending," meaning the probability that the newer data is similar to the older data is ~95% if 1 abnormal thing occurs, but scales to be <90% (or outside bounds for being "significant" [correlated]) after 2 abnormal things occur back to back. Ayu released Love songs, released FIVE and then did Party Queen. And then did A SUMMER BEST. And then did LOVE, again, A Classical, LOVE again... So, at that point, it wasn't just a couple "different" releases, it was clearly a pivot in the decisions with Ayu. But think back to when Ayu suddenly dialed back the activity in 2006, releasing only Startin'/BTB... and BLUE BIRD. Then suddenly Secret goes from mini-album to full album, and even after that, there's no new single until July 2007. That was another time Ayu clearly pivoted in her decisions, and one time a lot of people said, "Oh, she's taking a break." Well, 12 years is a long break!

I get worried about things like this because, as we saw with the release of L, Ayu just stopped caring about releasing really any singles. And those were a huge part of what kept people coming back, even when it was her 5,601st winter ballad or she looked dead inside on the cover [Sunrise/Sunset anyone?].

To me being an artist isn't chipping away at things that make you "artful", such as releasing a single or two every year or not copying your CDL performance for the next year's tour. It's not removing all the interludes from your albums, or dialing back the creative album covers. It's not a total of 3 whole pictures for the entire album booklet when she's done entire photobooks on a whim. Ayu says more product to me today because she's literally doing the only thing that makes a lot of money: touring. There's no new music, no attempt to promote when there is new music... the album art is half-assed, the albums went from 16 to 12 to 13 to 10, 10, 8 [WTF?!] songs, some of the songs became copies of other songs from the year before, it just puts it out there without directly saying it: "Not making an effort here... but come see me on tour! I've got A~20th POWER of MUSIC citronella candles for summer! A-YU-MOSQUITO-PROOF...?"

And that's the other thing. Andrenekoi, Ayu albums have never just said one or two things until Love songs. That was the first time Ayu only had one thing to say on an album. And then on FIVE, she only had one thing to say. And then on Party Queen, she only had one thing to say [but to be fair, she had been drinking.]

You know, the effort clearly went down. And the willingness to even try at some things, even for the people who were clearly not ready to let go, it just disappeared. But she's still got a new tour every year. And she's still doing the CDL. They just look exactly the same now. So, what's the point in buying both DVDs if the tour is just "A 2018 CDL... The Tour Edition"? Or if the next album is just "MORE LOVE songs again" featuring 6 original songs and 42 remixes of "Happening Here"?

I'm glad you see some art, but I just want to point out that AHS has become a ghost town compared to what it was even 5 years ago. My old best friend just stopped listening to Ayu. He had no clue she was still releasing stuff after Love songs. And this was the person who OBSESSED about this when I first met him. Like, he carried (miss)understood around the mall, not even listening to the CD, just carrying it around in his hands like it was a second wallet.

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

I like to see Love Songs~Party Queen~LOVE again as a trilogy were Ayu discuss her views and understanding of love.

Love Songs: She is singing about her idealized views of love as someone who sacrificed herself to reach her dream, but doesn't have much of a personal life. It's about her projections on how romantic love is. As it reflects her personal views on the subjects, it's a personal project.

Party Queen: This one is about her divorce, how she tries to drink and party her suffering away. On how her divorced hurted her and how her relationship with her parents affected her views on love. I don't really know how people don't see this as her most personal record to that, considering it's the only one where she openly discusses her issues. Letter, Return Road, Tell me why, the next LOVE and E.S.M. are all painfully open about stuff that happened to her.

LOVE again: This one expresses her conclusions about love after her idealistic views of love felt apart and she divorced. It pretty much describes the whole process of falling in love, having your heart broken, healing and fall in love again. Even so, the album starts with a song that makes it clear the relationship would fail (Wake me up) and it ends with her entering on another relationship that will fail again (You & Me). It's her album with the less hopeful ending, as she ever tries to end all of them on a lighter note. In between you have songs like SAKURA, Ivy, Sweet Scar, Wake me up, Untitled for her 2, etc that are again all very personal.

She was doing the same thing she ever done: Putting her personal issues on the spotlight. You don't think that love life, divorce, her biased views on romantic love and how wrong they were, the relationship examples she had at home, how the public views on her changed due to her love life are interesting themes? That's ok, you don't have to. Still, at the moment they were important to her and still were highly personal.

I don't think her life as Hamasaki Ayumi, the Empress of J-Pop, is uninteresting. I think it's unreasonable to tell such a short story over almost 50 original songs. Just for the record, Ayu put out GUILTY and managed to say far, far more on her 9th album, so much so that if you compiled Ayu's 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, and 17th albums, together, you'd get about the level of complexity found on GUILTY or even NEXT LEVEL. That's just such a huge dip, I'm surprised it doesn't stick out to you that that seems a bit... off... for someone who's known in the industry as a workaholic and couldn't quit when she went deaf because it was not the "professional thing to do".

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

Colours and A ONE weren't very personal and I myself said that on that post. You have 2 or 3 more personal songs on each album, but in general it was mostly damage control after the huge backlash she got.

M(A)DE IN JAPAN: Again she gets more personal on this one. I remember reading she saying this album was about how japanese culture tryed to restrict her as an artist (what explains the cover and the way the A is stylized on the title). It's a very short album, but it expresses her views on the japanese society (Flower, Mad World, Survivor), the obligatory concert ending, summer song and love message to the fandom songs (Today, Summer Love, You are the only one), a song for her them husband that was axed from concerts once the relationship ended (Mr. Darling). How much of the album is personal depends on how sincere you believe she is when she is singing Today and You are the only one. :B

About the PVs, IMO they were always hit or miss anyway, I'm not very found of her videography. Still, her videos got more experiemental after 10th anniversary. Do I think yhe experiements are always succesful? Nope. But this is just the nature or experiementing, it has a higher chance of failure. Still don't get the indiference/hatred for how beautiful you are, progress, Melody, the Love Again trilogy, Sweet Scar, WARNING, Sayonara, Step by step, FLOWER and Mad World as they are IMO either beautiful, deep or really creative.

But, seriously... what is Ayu experimenting with? How to turn one thought into 7 songs and convince people that's the new "studio album" in 2018? How to do the same aerial performance for the 6th tour in a row? How many more overdramatic reaches can one male dancer fit in during during the tour performance of "BALLAD"? I sound really cynical, sure. But I don't see where any of this "experimenting" is...? Sure, MIJ is different, and Colours is also different.

If you can find the time, take a moment to go back and watch the following videos back to back [no breaks allowed]: Don't look back, MOON, crossroad, Virgin Road, Sweet Season, Last angel, Love song, do it again, progress, beloved, and how beautiful you are.

And then go back watch the following videos back to back [no breaks allowed!]: HANABI ~episode II~, forgiveness, No way to say, Moments, CAROLS, HEAVEN, Pride, rainy day, JEWEL, momentum, part of Me.

I picked these sets of PVs because they are very similar to each other in style and song type. I'm not going to point out what's so different about the first set because I want to see if you can see it as plainly as I can. [I'll give you a hint: Count the number of scenes in each PV in both sets.]

Just curious whether you think the whole 5 minutes of crossroad's PV is more or less an experiment than alterna.

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

I also don't get the disdain for AT12, AT15 and AT16. They all use theater as a media for her to discuss her views on love, her career and her relationship with the japanese society. I don't even get the complaints about the concerts being visually alike. I also love how AT12 and AT16 actually loosely tell a whole story from beginning to the end, something that actually needs a lot more creative effort than she is credited to put on her stuff lately. I do agree jtb isn't that good, but her celebratory concerts IMO tend to be her worst anyway, but AT12, AT15 and AT16 are probably her tours with the most depth to date.

I'm thinking about opening threads to discuss the concepts from her post Love Again releases, like the ones I once did for her albums until LOVE again.

The CDL and the Tour DVD are practically down to choosing which camera angle you want to see the concert in. Have you seen the Tour of Secret? Or the 2008 ASIA TOUR? Ayu used to ride on a damn ship and wear a pirate costume. Does she even actually walk the entire stage these days? I feel like every performance she's in the same 10 foot space she started at when she walked on stage.

[Katsuyuki012]

Since I don't really feel like saying too much let me just shortly write those two things:

^yea she still walks/runs the whole stage and btw was riding an elephant in AT15 and had huge stairs in AT16.

About her aerial performances: how is Angel similar to GAME and how do those performances resemble the kanariya performance or the endless sorrow one?
Yes there might be small similarities but that's it.

[maxikot]

Let me just say that this huge post above me made me feel heavy and it's not because how informative or convincing it is.
I'll just refer to 2 things cause it's way too tiresome to elaborate on the whole thing. Party Queen, the drinking part, seriously... like seriously is drinking the only part you got from it? The album is deep and heavy, man....
And it's quite interesting to read that videos such as "Don't look back" or "Do it again" are similar to "Beloved" or "Love song" in any way. Oh they are, Ayu is there. Like wtf?

And you just couldn't resist, right? Don't know if you haven't noticed but the thread came back on track meaning "social media". So hard to take it to "Anything goes"?
I want to say one thing. I totally get when you say that this forum has become a ghost town. Such opinions, posts make me want to stay away.

[Andrenekoi]

Originally Posted by orbitalaspect

I understood that, which is why I wrote that I think Ayu did follow a trend: LOVE. LOVE LOVE LOVE. FEEL THE LOVE-GO-ROUND. It just really, really shows a lack of diversity in the topics she's singing about these days. I'll give you that MIJ and Colours were different, and I think that's why I still look at Colours as one of my guilty pleasures. (And because I honestly love that Ayu did a track with RedOne, and that LICO and her did a not-so-boring PV for once.) My idea of not being a product is evolving the creative outlet. Dan Brown isn't only as good as his first novel. Britney Spears isn't only as good as her first two albums.

I didn't get the comparation with Dan Brown and Britney Spears. They are both pretty much the definition of product artists xD

I understand that not every album is going to land -- it's bound to happen at some point that every artist will flop a studio album -- but I think having 7 straight years of that is a trend. In analytics, we generally look at anything abnormal in data that happens two or more consecutive times to be "trending," meaning the probability that the newer data is similar to the older data is ~95% if 1 abnormal thing occurs, but scales to be <90% (or outside bounds for being "significant" [correlated]) after 2 abnormal things occur back to back. Ayu released Love songs, released FIVE and then did Party Queen. And then did A SUMMER BEST. And then did LOVE, again, A Classical, LOVE again... So, at that point, it wasn't just a couple "different" releases, it was clearly a pivot in the decisions with Ayu. But think back to when Ayu suddenly dialed back the activity in 2006, releasing only Startin'/BTB... and BLUE BIRD. Then suddenly Secret goes from mini-album to full album, and even after that, there's no new single until July 2007. That was another time Ayu clearly pivoted in her decisions, and one time a lot of people said, "Oh, she's taking a break." Well, 12 years is a long break!

When we talk about trends on marketing or cultural production, we talk about stuff that tend to sell well/grab attention due to the current state of art. Ayu isn't following those as close as Namie or Utada right now, even if she is following those from a degree, and always did.

I get worried about things like this because, as we saw with the release of L, Ayu just stopped caring about releasing really any singles. And those were a huge part of what kept people coming back, even when it was her 5,601st winter ballad or she looked dead inside on the cover [Sunrise/Sunset anyone?].

You are worried about her as a product in here, as sales and the public reaction to her are your worries.

To me being an artist isn't chipping away at things that make you "artful", such as releasing a single or two every year or not copying your CDL performance for the next year's tour. It's not removing all the interludes from your albums, or dialing back the creative album covers. It's not a total of 3 whole pictures for the entire album booklet when she's done entire photobooks on a whim. Ayu says more product to me today because she's literally doing the only thing that makes a lot of money: touring. There's no new music, no attempt to promote when there is new music... the album art is half-assed, the albums went from 16 to 12 to 13 to 10, 10, 8 [WTF?!] songs, some of the songs became copies of other songs from the year before, it just puts it out there without directly saying it: "Not making an effort here... but come see me on tour! I've got A~20th POWER of MUSIC citronella candles for summer! A-YU-MOSQUITO-PROOF...?"

I'm sorry, but the stronger the identity of an artist is, the most common it will be for they to be repetitive, because you are the vision of the same person behind everything. It's far easier for Namie not being repetitive because, as her producers even said recently, there's little to none of Namie, the person, on her releases. Also, the amount of interludes or beautiful picutures aren't really what make something artful. And worring about promotion is a worry about Ayu as a product.

And that's the other thing. Andrenekoi, Ayu albums have never just said one or two things until Love songs. That was the first time Ayu only had one thing to say on an album. And then on FIVE, she only had one thing to say. And then on Party Queen, she only had one thing to say [but to be fair, she had been drinking.]

I don't want to be rude, but if you read the Party Queen lyrics, or the Love Songs lyrics, or the Love Again lyrics and only got 1 thing each, or worst, 1 thing in all of them, I recomend you trying it again, cuz you did it wrong o_O If having an overall theme bothers you, you most likely shouldn't like RAINBOW or Duty either, because them both also have unified concepts through them.

You know, the effort clearly went down. And the willingness to even try at some things, even for the people who were clearly not ready to let go, it just disappeared. But she's still got a new tour every year. And she's still doing the CDL. They just look exactly the same now. So, what's the point in buying both DVDs if the tour is just "A 2018 CDL... The Tour Edition"? Or if the next album is just "MORE LOVE songs again" featuring 6 original songs and 42 remixes of "Happening Here"?

I'm glad you see some art, but I just want to point out that AHS has become a ghost town compared to what it was even 5 years ago. My old best friend just stopped listening to Ayu. He had no clue she was still releasing stuff after Love songs. And this was the person who OBSESSED about this when I first met him. Like, he carried (miss)understood around the mall, not even listening to the CD, just carrying it around in his hands like it was a second wallet.

How much of the public stayed around over the years isn't really a good way to measure up how artist she is, really, as more commercial musicians overall sell way more than the ones with the most depth :B Also, it's just natural people slowly turn away from any artist as the years goes by. Namie isn't strong right now because she kept her 90's following, she is strong becase she found a new following over the years, and the same can be said about pretty much any artist who was able to retain their popularity over the decades.

Even Ayu has some pretty young people on the audience when you watch the DVDs.

About eh CDLs and Tours being alike. Why the hell would she waste her time producing a hyper complex performance to present it for 2 or 3 nights and let it die? It's is... kinda stupid? It's not like she was ever the biggest concert DVD seller out there or that most of the public who consumes her will watch both the CDL and the Tour. It's also important to remember her core audience is Japanese. We, as international fans, are pretty much an accident. :B For a japanese person who doesn't buy her dvds, it's nice watching an already tested and improoved performance live, as there are way less tickets avaliable for CDL than there are for the tours. Even a Japanese fan who watched the recorded version of the CDL but didn't watch it live (what is VERY likely) can use it as a promotion to get interest in seeing the same performance live, what are 2 completely different experiences.

She isn't catering to us, she is catering for her Japanese public, and she would be dumb if she tried the opposite considering there wasn't that much of us even when she was at her peak.

Also, the CDL performance usually only have the performances themselves thrown up together, while the tour is where there's more effort on giving them an actuall concept and linking one to the other in order to create a narrative.

I don't think her life as Hamasaki Ayumi, the Empress of J-Pop, is uninteresting. I think it's unreasonable to tell such a short story over almost 50 original songs. Just for the record, Ayu put out GUILTY and managed to say far, far more on her 9th album, so much so that if you compiled Ayu's 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, and 17th albums, together, you'd get about the level of complexity found on GUILTY or even NEXT LEVEL. That's just such a huge dip, I'm surprised it doesn't stick out to you that that seems a bit... off... for someone who's known in the industry as a workaholic and couldn't quit when she went deaf because it was not the "professional thing to do".

Funny enough, I find both Guilty and NEXT LEVEL to be among her less inspired works to date as albums. They were from a time she was releasing a lot of seasonal singles that were more or less safe sales and as a result the albums as a whole were very, very messy. You did got complex tracks, but the complex tracks didn't communicate with each other in any level.
About her personal life being or not being interesting, or she having other stuff to tell, there's no way for us to know that as none of us know her. Maybe she have the most boring life ever.

But, seriously... what is Ayu experimenting with? How to turn one thought into 7 songs and convince people that's the new "studio album" in 2018? How to do the same aerial performance for the 6th tour in a row? How many more overdramatic reaches can one male dancer fit in during during the tour performance of "BALLAD"? I sound really cynical, sure. But I don't see where any of this "experimenting" is...? Sure, MIJ is different, and Colours is also different.

If you think Angel, Game, Marionette, Brillante, endless sorrow and kanariya performances all look the same, I would recommend you to watch them again, aparently you did it wrong. The choreography isn't the same, the aereal equipament isn't the same and use in the performance isn't the same.

If you can find the time, take a moment to go back and watch the following videos back to back [no breaks allowed]: Don't look back, MOON, crossroad, Virgin Road, Sweet Season, Last angel, Love song, do it again, progress, beloved, and how beautiful you are.

And then go back watch the following videos back to back [no breaks allowed!]: HANABI ~episode II~, forgiveness, No way to say, Moments, CAROLS, HEAVEN, Pride, rainy day, JEWEL, momentum, part of Me.

I picked these sets of PVs because they are very similar to each other in style and song type. I'm not going to point out what's so different about the first set because I want to see if you can see it as plainly as I can. [I'll give you a hint: Count the number of scenes in each PV in both sets.]

More or less scenes don't think anything more or less artistic? And she has experiemented a lot more on a technical level lately, in the sense that she is trying new technologies (like that camera from the shitty NaNaNa PV) or filming technques that aren't frequently used in the mainstream (progress).

None of the videos you pointed out as "the good ones", maybe Part of Me and Moments aside, are remotely experiemental or risky and I dare say, even very creative (maybe that horrid Santa from NWTS is :V). They are all VERY beautiful, but they are all also very standart eye-candy pop music video.

Don't look back, crossroad, Virgin Road, Sweet Season, Last angel, Love song, do it again, progress, and how beautiful you are, all either have an interesting level of depth for a pop music video (like the reflection on her own conflicts about her own career in the first 2 and Sweet Season, the desconstructed narrative on the Love Songs triology, or the social commentary in hbya, etc). You can understand way more about Ayu as a person through progress and through JEWEL or something.

Just curious whether you think the whole 5 minutes of crossroad's PV is more or less an experiment than alterna.

None of them is in any level experiemental, are they? They both deal with a somewhat similar subject, her views of herself as a popstar (a recurrent theme of her videos since the A Best incident, maybe), taking completely different takes and views on it. I would say alterna reveals way more about Ayu's perception of the industry, while crossroad reveals way more about her perception of herself as a pop icon.

The CDL and the Tour DVD are practically down to choosing which camera angle you want to see the concert in. Have you seen the Tour of Secret? Or the 2008 ASIA TOUR? Ayu used to ride on a damn ship and wear a pirate costume. Does she even actually walk the entire stage these days? I feel like every performance she's in the same 10 foot space she started at when she walked on stage.

Again, if you know she will repeat herself (and considering she started doing that almost one year ago, it's very likely) and if you think it's way too repetitive why don't you watch just one of those? I mean, nobody is putting a gun in your head and forcing you through the CDLs. They changed purpose over the years (and they may even have been extinct), that's natural considering her current concerts are way more complex from a performer point of view and everyone has MORE choreography and acting.

You miss the props, but from a performer point of view it takes way less effort to be taken around on a giant ship than it takes to actually learn choreography, the simpler that choreography is.

As a performer, she never really made as much effort during her whole career as she done after 2008.

You seen to link artistry with big concert props, luxurious booklets and pretty music videos. That's ok, it's your take on it.

But, by these standards, nobody in the industry has as much artistry as Katy Perry.

[KarenPang]

I agree with some of the things that orbitalaspect wrote . Seeing the numerous different up's + down's Ayu went through be it in her personal or professional life , it's an overall mixed bag of feelings for me especially since she was the very 1st Japanese artiste I started listening and supporting more than 10 years ago

Physical CD sales are not the same as compared to 10 if not 20 years ago . Still I don't think Ayu should have stopped releasing CD singles . Zutto... / Last minute / Walk was released as her 53rd single 4 years ago and then she stopped releasing singles after that which I feel it's saddening

I support and listen to so many artistes . Most of them except for Johnny groups , their physical CD sales are on average decent if not poor but the general public at least has some impressions on them because no matter how big or unknown you are , any artiste need to do a considerable amount of promo to get word out there and not just rely on your main core fanbase

2018 is Ayu's 20th anniversary which's a big milestone for any musician but instead for now she only chose to do an Arena tour and perform in a-nation in August which I feel that avex should go all out and milk fans for all its worth . At least there's a valid reason for doing so

Perhaps avex gave up the way in marketing Ayu or Ayu doesn't care anymore ? After the disastrous way they did regarding her 15th anniversary , I wouldn't be surprised and LOVE again was actually the 1st Ayu album I was disappointed in based on the way it was marketed

To a certain extent , I agree that orbitalaspect commented that it has been so long since Ayu surprise everyone with something unexpectedly good . However for my case , I was surprised that I enjoyed M(A)DE IN JAPAN even though album covers wise that's another different matter

The Ayu now is a paled shadow of her old self and it's very evident when you compare her old releases against what she has been releasing over the past 5 years , quality wise

At least the quality of Ayu's PVs were still quite good during Rock'n'Roll Circus but after that , things went downhill although from time to time she was still able to come up with decent entertaining PVs that do justice if not elevate the songs

Bottom line is , I still hope to see some of the old Ayu spark return back to her . Knowing this year's her 20th anniversary , she should embrace it and make it a big loud statement she has been around for so long . And for her choosing not to do that , it's a bit upsetting to me

[orbitalaspect]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

I didn't get the comparation with Dan Brown and Britney Spears. They are both pretty much the definition of product artists xD

To anyone who isn't a fan, maybe. But I dare you to go tell people in the Brit thread that Britney isn't a real artist. They'll throw a lot of examples at you, from her co-executive producing to co-writing hits like "Everytime" to having contributed her own songwriting to her albums since Oops! I Did It Again.

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

When we talk about trends on marketing or cultural production, we talk about stuff that tend to sell well/grab attention due to the current state of art. Ayu isn't following those as close as Namie or Utada right now, even if she is following those from a degree, and always did.

You are worried about her as a product in here, as sales and the public reaction to her are your worries.

I'm sorry, but the stronger the identity of an artist is, the most common it will be for they to be repetitive, because you are the vision of the same person behind everything. It's far easier for Namie not being repetitive because, as her producers even said recently, there's little to none of Namie, the person, on her releases. Also, the amount of interludes or beautiful picutures aren't really what make something artful. And worring about promotion is a worry about Ayu as a product.

We honestly cannot compare Utada to Ayu right now or at any point in the last 20 years. They stopped being comparable when Utada released DEEP RIVER and effectively took complete control of her career. So, with all due respect, I've had my head in both artists for 12 years, and while I can say frankly that Utada's "hiatus" was one of my the most disappointing things I've seen an artist do [because, to be fair, she announced a "hiatus" 2 years after having released or toured, so she was already on a hiatus for two years at that point], it certainly didn't change the quality of her writing or production. I want to point out that Utada didn't just effectively break from the industry for 8 years, she came back having done more work directly on Fantome than she had on any prior release.

It's one thing to defend Ayu if you think a point I've made is questionable. It's an entirely different thing to argue that because Utada sells 750k, she's all about product. Among female artists period in the 00s and 10s, Utada is pretty untouchable when questioning whether she's an artist or an idol. And that's not just my opinion, it's pretty much an objective description shared by people who don't even like what she does.

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

I don't want to be rude, but if you read the Party Queen lyrics, or the Love Songs lyrics, or the Love Again lyrics and only got 1 thing each, or worst, 1 thing in all of them, I recomend you trying it again, cuz you did it wrong o_O If having an overall theme bothers you, you most likely shouldn't like RAINBOW or Duty either, because them both also have unified concepts through them.

You're not being rude. I did read the lyrics for Ls, PQ, and La. And compared to older songs, they are highly formulaic and mono-theme. I chose the PVs I offered in those two lists specifically to highlight the difference in creative output. Songs like Daybreak's HAL remix are Ayu experimenting. Songs like meaning of Love are tracks you won't hear at all in her discography pre-RnRC. A close example is this forum's reaction to curtain call, which a lot of people thought was forgettable. But that's nothing compared to the vocal disappointment on most of Ayu's ballads since RnRC. A lot of people loved BRILLANTE, loved Melody, partially enjoyed The GIFT, and liked Shape of Love. But I think it's harder to find posts from people who have said great things about Ayu's music since 2010 than it is to find people posting how boring, uninteresting, or typical each release has been. People loved WARNING and loved snowy kiss, but I lost count of how many people thought Lelio was a try-hard, The Show Must Go On should have been a lot more original of a song, and tracks like Angel were borderline memes. And I haven't even addressed the visual presentation of any of this yet. Ayu's worn some nice outfits but I don't think the average opinion here is that Ayu has made even a minimally sincere attempt at covers, PVs, booklets, or even the AT logos. (I've seen more complaints year over year since HOTEL Love Songs than I even saw in one year from 2006-2011. The first time I saw people actually complain in multiple posts about a tour was when Ayu did PoM.)

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

How much of the public stayed around over the years isn't really a good way to measure up how artist she is, really, as more commercial musicians overall sell way more than the ones with the most depth :B Also, it's just natural people slowly turn away from any artist as the years goes by. Namie isn't strong right now because she kept her 90's following, she is strong becase she found a new following over the years, and the same can be said about pretty much any artist who was able to retain their popularity over the decades.

Even Ayu has some pretty young people on the audience when you watch the DVDs.

I'm not talking about the public. I'm talking about huge fans, people like my old best friend who were deeply affected by Ayu's music for years, completely losing interest and forgetting even the songs that mattered so much to them. The last time I talked to Andy about Ayu, I mentioned how awesome it would be to hear Ayu do another song like Connected, and he flat out said he couldn't remember how the song went. When I met him in 2006, that was his #1 song by Ayu. I couldn't even get him to listen to Colours.

And he's not the only fan I know who's pretty much forgotten Ayu was even relevant to them for so many years. I've met people from AHS and all but I think one or two thought Ayu was still releasing #1 singles and albums every few months and every year. When a die hard fan rolls off, it's not just a lost sale or lower chart position. I think it's a pretty serious deal when someone just stops caring and/or completely forgets about their favorite music artist of all time and all they can say is, "Well, I guess I just started listening to other stuff."

Of course Ayu will have younger people in the audience. With each album release, AHS sees a few newcomers show up and talk about how they just discovered Ayu and think she's so cool and want to know which of her previous albums to listen to first, etc. Comparably, Miliyah Kato won over a ton of people with LIBERTY. That record sold pretty damn poorly, but it was IMHO, the best J-Pop release I had heard in years. You can find my emphatic posts about H.I.K.A.R.I. and other songs on the Miliyah threads.

And again, going back to my point to you about Utada: I think you're more-so holding to some belief that a good artist doesn't sell well than that I'm judging the quality of an artist by how well they continue to sell. Hoshino Gen is extremely popular. He not only writes and produces but arranges and performs several instruments on his songs. And I don't like his music. I think it's bland, boring crap. I think he's a pretty forgettable performer and singer. But a lot of people think he's highly respectable for being so broadly talented. Selling 30x more than other male artists doesn't make him any less of an "artist", and I would honestly agree that even if I think he doesn't make anything worth listening to, he's still an artist.

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

About eh CDLs and Tours being alike. Why the hell would she waste her time producing a hyper complex performance to present it for 2 or 3 nights and let it die? It's is... kinda stupid? It's not like she was ever the biggest concert DVD seller out there or that most of the public who consumes her will watch both the CDL and the Tour. It's also important to remember her core audience is Japanese. We, as international fans, are pretty much an accident. :B

I gotta stop you at that last sentence. Ayu's international fanbase isn't an accident. She's literally more popular and more well known in the West than any other Asian recording artist, including massive legends in the East from China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan, like Jay Park, A-Mei, and GEM. Ayu is so well known internationally, even in the West, that CNN hosted a prime-time broadcast interview with her in the US in the late 00s. She is the only Asian singer to ever be listed in Forbes. And considering that more than 30 million of her sales have been outside of Japan, she has literally sold an entire Koda Kumi before we even start counting the buyers in Japan.

So, it's not stupid that she would have produced a completely different CDL experience because these were special events for Ayu. Until 2012-2013 CDL, Ayu had distinct CDL and Tour performances every year. There may be a couple similar things, but they were clearly different performances, often having few if any overlap in song choices as well. It was when she started scaling back heavily on things like a-nation and started touring fewer venues and stopped doing distinct tours for large and medium-sized venues that she stopped investing as much individual creativity into the CDL. Keep in mind, Ayu usually sells out all three days, and has historically sold 50-100k+ copies of the CDL DVDs. On AHS, people used to announce them to as much attention as the tour DVD releases got.

Would I be disappointed if Ayu kept some things from the CDL for the Tour? No. I understand some ideas may be a great fit for the Tour concept or theme. But please go watch Koda Kumi's tours. With the exception of her last one or two, Koda still keeps the overall "performance" of being on tour clearly distinct from her other performances. She may rehash performance themes, like hip hop or elegance or futuristic, but there's been a clear divide between how she has pulled off those repeat themes. The hip hop Koda from Bon Voyage is definitely not the same hip hop Koda from The Artist.

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

For a japanese person who doesn't buy her dvds, it's nice watching an already tested and improoved performance live, as there are way less tickets avaliable for CDL than there are for the tours. Even a Japanese fan who watched the recorded version of the CDL but didn't watch it live (what is VERY likely) can use it as a promotion to get interest in seeing the same performance live, what are 2 completely different experiences.

She isn't catering to us, she is catering for her Japanese public, and she would be dumb if she tried the opposite considering there wasn't that much of us even when she was at her peak.

Also, the CDL performance usually only have the performances themselves thrown up together, while the tour is where there's more effort on giving them an actuall concept and linking one to the other in order to create a narrative.

I feel like you don't understand why Ayu has done the CDL for almost 18 years. It was meant to be a unique, special performance for very dedicated fans to ring in the New Year with Ayu. There are people on this forum who have paid thousands of dollars just to get tickets, fly to Japan and be able to attend a CDL. That's not an investment you repay with a 3-day live tour rehearsal. If you would put $3-5k of your money down to go see Ayu perform a limited availability event, how meaningful would that investment feel to you if Ayu just practiced older songs for a cover album on stage the whole time?

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

Funny enough, I find both Guilty and NEXT LEVEL to be among her less inspired works to date as albums. They were from a time she was releasing a lot of seasonal singles that were more or less safe sales and as a result the albums as a whole were very, very messy. You did got complex tracks, but the complex tracks didn't communicate with each other in any level.
About her personal life being or not being interesting, or she having other stuff to tell, there's no way for us to know that as none of us know her. Maybe she have the most boring life ever.

I can accept that opinion about NEXT LEVEL. On GUILTY, and I mean this as nice as I can put it: You should really not... like ever... go around Ayu fan spaces saying GUILTY was "less-inspired" by any means. Apart from I am..., GUILTY is critically lauded by us because it is not only her most cohesively-themed and honest studio album, it was also the album recorded after losing her hearing permanently in her left ear. After the record's release, Ayu bravely decided to inform the public that she had permanently lost her hearing, and one of the things that made her survive the pretty messed up tabloids and news articles about her not being "qualified to sing" anymore was that GUILTY proved she could sing and perform as well as she did before the hearing loss. So, the album has a lot deeper meaning and inspiration behind it than just the music. GUILTY is a big deal to all of us, just be conscientious of that.

I also want to point out that GUILTY was when Ayu committed to being a "professional" and never quitting her career until she physically couldn't sing or hear anymore. It was a pretty important statement from her and made a lot of us feel like we should commit more to what we care about too.

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

If you think Angel, Game, Marionette, Brillante, endless sorrow and kanariya performances all look the same, I would recommend you to watch them again, aparently you did it wrong. The choreography isn't the same, the aereal equipament isn't the same and use in the performance isn't the same.

More or less scenes don't think anything more or less artistic? And she has experiemented a lot more on a technical level lately, in the sense that she is trying new technologies (like that camera from the shitty NaNaNa PV) or filming technques that aren't frequently used in the mainstream (progress).

None of the videos you pointed out as "the good ones", maybe Part of Me and Moments aside, are remotely experiemental or risky and I dare say, even very creative (maybe that horrid Santa from NWTS is :V). They are all VERY beautiful, but they are all also very standart eye-candy pop music video.

Don't look back, crossroad, Virgin Road, Sweet Season, Last angel, Love song, do it again, progress, and how beautiful you are, all either have an interesting level of depth for a pop music video (like the reflection on her own conflicts about her own career in the first 2 and Sweet Season, the desconstructed narrative on the Love Songs triology, or the social commentary in hbya, etc). You can understand way more about Ayu as a person through progress and through JEWEL or something.

Your last sentence is hilarious only because JEWEL, even while being my absolute favorite of Ayu's PVs, was largely criticized as being among her most fake and pointless. I will give you progress though. That was an interesting concept.

As far as her other videos, I think it's mostly reflective of when you first became introduced to Ayu. I know we've had this conversation in the past on other threads. There may be some serious depth in what Ayu does, but those of us who have been around Ayu for a long, long time, have no clue what the hell she is thinking. We've talked about PVs like crossroad, Last angel, etc. And they may be interesting at certain points, but they're certainly lacking the humility and meticulous planning characteristic of older videos.

I understand you may think videos like M are just vanity scenes. Maybe quite a few of them are. But I'd also like to point out that Ayu recorded the PV for Duty not too long ago, and there was clearly less effort put into that PV than most artists would put into a lyric video for YouTube.

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

None of them is in any level experiemental, are they? They both deal with a somewhat similar subject, her views of herself as a popstar (a recurrent theme of her videos since the A Best incident, maybe), taking completely different takes and views on it. I would say alterna reveals way more about Ayu's perception of the industry, while crossroad reveals way more about her perception of herself as a pop icon.

Again, if you know she will repeat herself (and considering she started doing that almost one year ago, it's very likely) and if you think it's way too repetitive why don't you watch just one of those? I mean, nobody is putting a gun in your head and forcing you through the CDLs. They changed purpose over the years (and they may even have been extinct), that's natural considering her current concerts are way more complex from a performer point of view and everyone has MORE choreography and acting.

You miss the props, but from a performer point of view it takes way less effort to be taken around on a giant ship than it takes to actually learn choreography, the simpler that choreography is.

As a performer, she never really made as much effort during her whole career as she done after 2008.

You seen to link artistry with big concert props, luxurious booklets and pretty music videos. That's ok, it's your take on it.

But, by these standards, nobody in the industry has as much artistry as Katy Perry.

Ayumi is not Tracy Chapman. She's not Janis Joplin or a schlager-pop singer. She was a young girl who did OK karaoke but could write songs really well, was a tooth-and-nail fight for Matsuura to train to sing, and has been a pain in the ass for avex since before her first single was released. If an artist evolves, great. If this is evolution for Ayu, it's comparable to removing a dog's paws and placing tennis balls over the stumps.

There are still props. Every tour has props. It's just that they're the same props more often than not these days. It doesn't strike you as odd when Ayu announces a tour theme and half the comments on the official thread are, "She did this already." ? I have no clue how many circus themed tours she's done, but the fact that I know she's done more than I can count off the top of my head is pretty low on the creative scale for me.

Look, I'm not going to argue that you don't have some good considerations for Ayu's recent releases and performances and other career decisions. I'm just going to argue that she's vocally been more complex with less career-changing decisions like the way she handles CDLs and Tours. I don't think Ayu would have completely flipped 180 degrees in the way she communicates with fans about doing things differently or how certain business things affect her personally.

Unless Ayu is now an introvert. If that's the case, I'm just going to throw my hands up and call this debate officially over.

[tokyoxjapanxfan]

I'm not replying to anyone in particular lol.
Just going with the theme of the thread~

I was under the impression she was coaxed into writing lyrics, and her sound was more of an "anti" Komuro.

1998 was still huge into dance music, but Max took her into a completely different direction. And lyrics became the forefront of her music as opposed to just the sound. (At the time, this was pretty rare.)

I also heard that the reason for poker face's cover hiding her face was because Max wanted her to sell for more than her image. (But I don't have sources for this...)

Personally I believe that Ayu, when produced by Max, was still having to listen and abide by his direction. I'm sure she had the ability to voice her opinion, but it's -very- possible that Max wanted her to look like she was in complete control, even if she wasn't. To make her seem more than she might have really been. To make her star factor even bigger.

I mean, she was at one time the most profitable person for Avex. I truly doubt any company would have been letting such a person do as they please.

I do think there was -a lot- of work going on in the background.

I think Ayu is far more in control now. Which could be the reason quality has started to diminish. She doesn't have someone guiding her in any specific direction like Max had done.

Obviously we will only ever have theories.

But to me, the Ayu many people long for, was Ayu as the product. Not Ayu as the individual.

Even remix albums, I've heard, were completely because Max wanted to do them, and sell them, and market her in such a way. We all know A Best was an Avex decision as well.

Anyway, none of these things are bad things. And they're just my thoughts and what I've heard over the years haha. Take them with a grain of salt.

I still love Ayu, but there are things that I think she could benefit greatly from by changing.

[Andrenekoi]

^Yup. Anyone working on a field were there is so much money being used won't have 100% freedom for doing whatever they want, and there's a chance a lot of the more product aspects of Ayu's career weren't Ayu at all, like deciding to release seasonal singles and I'm sure her album direction was decided by her market team more than once, and this apply to any popstar. Madonna herself, who could actually release anything she wish as the has the money to back it up has a manager, hired by her, to stop her to being too crazy.

^^I think we got to that point we will just keep on throwing opinions at each other for no effect, so I will just take some points I believe need adressing:

- Utada IS following trends closer than Ayu, and that's ok. She spent 10 years out and need to take her space on the market again (what also explains why she is taking a more traditional promotional road than she did in the past). I'm not questioning her as an artist as much as I'm pointing out something she is doing for the moment and that she has not done since Distance. Ayu pretty much done the same thing starting in 2003 to 2010, following market trends closer ir order to keeep relevant for longer, as did Namie after Past > Future. If your career last long enough and you are a pop musician, you will have to play it safe from times to times. Hikki is actually my favorite musician in the world and I have no problem with she following trends closer for a while in order to reintroduce herself.

- Sorry, IMO Guilty is one of her worst releases to date and it aged really really bad. I don't care about the context if the execution wasn't good, and IMO this one wasn't, even if I liked it at the time. And she didn't announce she was going deaf to the public, it was leaked from TA, a very limited space.

- I listen to Ayu since 2003. I consider myself an Ayu fan since 2005. I have been around for most of her career, so, I'm not just someone who listened to Lelio on youtube and subscribed at the forum.

- I don't think selling less makes anyone more artistic. But manufaturated musicians TEND to sell way more than those with some kind of artistic vision. And really, we are discussing Ayumi Hamasaki, the best selling solo act in Japan, not some indie artist. The same goes for Hikki, or even non jpop artists I enjoy like Uhm Jung Hwa, Madonna, Beyoncé, Mylene Farmer or the brazilian musicians I follow. Being able to allie the market powerhouse that exist in pop music with the creativy vision of an artist is what interests me the most.

-There wasn't ever that list pointing out Ayu as one of the richest celebrities in the world in Forbes. That's some fake info some crazy fan made up to inflate her numbers. On the same way, there's no official statement about her sales overseas. Her sales WERE good on other Asian countries, but it had more to do with Japan having a big mass culture influence on those countries than with Ayu. Anyone on her position at the moment would sell well on those countries. Even so, the sales on those countries were always VERY low compared to Japan, as the music markets were way smaller.

[dreamalley]

Originally Posted by orbitalaspect

To me being an artist isn't chipping away at things that make you "artful", such as releasing a single or two every year or not copying your CDL performance for the next year's tour. It's not removing all the interludes from your albums, or dialing back the creative album covers. It's not a total of 3 whole pictures for the entire album booklet when she's done entire photobooks on a whim. Ayu says more product to me today because she's literally doing the only thing that makes a lot of money: touring. There's no new music, no attempt to promote when there is new music... the album art is half-assed, the albums went from 16 to 12 to 13 to 10, 10, 8 [WTF?!] songs, some of the songs became copies of other songs from the year before, it just puts it out there without directly saying it: "Not making an effort here... but come see me on tour! I've got A~20th POWER of MUSIC citronella candles for summer! A-YU-MOSQUITO-PROOF...?"

[KarenPang]

Something that orbitalaspect wrote which stuck a chord with me is what he wrote regarding his friend who was a long time Ayu fan but now he doesn't listen to her anymore

When I 1st joined AHS , I befriended quite a lot of users . Now I rarely see them on here except for a very selective few . Most don't come on here anymore if not probably move on with supporting other artistes and etc

That to me is saddening especially since some of them supported Ayu much more longer than me and for this to happen and also for what orbitalaspect experienced , it's very unfortunate

Also I haven't been impressed with Ayu's concert goods for quite some time now . Even the recent batch of POWER of MUSIC 20th anniversary goods , the only 1 I genuinely like is the pamphlet

The photoshoot Ayu did with Leslie Kee no doubt is nice but it looks like something that should have been in a high fashion magazine & not a pamphlet celebrating her 20th anniversary

Instead of the pamphlet , Ayu should have released something like an Ayu Live History Book that's filled with many photos of all the numerous concerts/tours she did over the past 20 years of her career . That would be something I will buy without any hesitation as it would have been a great item to own

I know in recent years the way Ayu release her stuff and also do tours , it's geared towards her main fan corebase but when things like this happen on here , something's not right

[voltron]

Alright, I'm going to start with the necessary disclaimer, since a lot of folk here get triggered by bringing up anyone else's name, etc. I've been a fan of Ayu for nearly 19 years, have been following Hikki since Distance, a fan of Koda Kumi since her second album, and a fan of Namie since around Love Enhanced. So all this to say, I've been following these women for longer than some of you have been alive. But seriously, I've gone through phases with ALL of them where I've liked them more or less, and feel like I have a pretty firm grasp on their careers, personas, styles, etc.

There's a lot to unpack in these comments. So let's dig in, in no particular order, and with me being to lazy to re-read a lot of the above diatribes.

Myth #1: Being an artist means constantly innovating or pushing the envelope. Nope, nope, nope. Artistry comes in so many different forms, and for many it is about knowing who you are and continuing to to develop that vision (with more or less success). BoA, for example, is a DANCER - she can put pretty much any other performer out there to shame (with the exception of maybe Koda Kumi). As of late her Korean music has been more innovative, but being an innovative musician was never really her deal (and personally I've always found her Korean music to be second-string to her Japanese). For Ayu, she has a very clear image of who she is - and who she isn't. She tries new things here and there, but her artistry is in refining the image of "Ayumi Hamasaki" - there is a certain contradiction here of artistry vs. product, but that's also part of Ayu, isn't is? See my post in the other thread, but I think Ayu is a "genuine/authentic product" if you will. The hypocrisy in orbitalaspect's comments are insane because he bashes Ayu for repeating herself, when he stans for Hikki in her thread. Fantome is nothing more than an Adult Contemporary version of Deep River, and everything she's released leading up to its follow-up has proven to be nothing more than b-sides and rejects from Fantome. I'll give you that even though I didn't particularly like them (see Ultra Blue, Heart Station, etc.), Hikki has always been willing to play with sounds, genres, etc. Even if you look at her tours, which have been far and few between, they're mostly her standing there with horrid vocals - but please, go ahead and bash Ayu for recycling some concepts when she tours every single year. Hell, even Koda Kumi recycles performances, uses the same choreography, etc. - even if the outfits and lighting have changed.

Myth #2: Touring performers are less artistic. It's a well-known fact that touring generates more money than making music, so I'm not going to argue that. And, at the end of the day, as much as any of these women love making music, they're not trying to be poor. Making money doesn't make you less artistic, either. As for touring, I really think Koda Kumi is probably the most innovative of the bunch in recent years, and you can tell she really loves touring and trying new things. Ayu, on the other hand, is again working on refining the image she has in her head - sometimes to more or less success. In recent years she is more focused on incremental improvements or changes, instead of the sweeping changes she made while she was still trying to find her groove. Also worth noting, the music industry has changed and there's no doubt that she has less budget than she used to, so she's probably doing what she can to put on a show. Meanwhile, someone like Namie literally does the same thing over and over again, just with different lights and videos (since props aren't really her thing), and gets applauded for having such a hard work ethic. I love Namie, and I lived for her Finally Dome Tour - but it was also exactly what I wanted, which was her 20th Dome Tour repeated but with more songs from Finally and fewer from Uncontrolled. Don't get it twisted - the videos were stunning, and the lighting was amazing, but there was no plot, no theme, and no coherence throughout the whole thing.

Myth #3: Growing up means losing artistry. I'm sorry if y'all are still angsty AF and have the emotional capacity of a high schooler and are looking for some lyrics that are going to make you curl up in the fetal position and cry about your long-lost boyfriend of 3 months. Love has always been a central theme for Ayu - arguably Love & Freedom are at the heart of almost all she's done. She is a grown woman, and she's not going to be writing songs about not knowing where she fits in the world, or finding her way, or the struggle of moving from adolescence to adulthood. That worked for a while in her career, and it was genuine - but just because she's not struggling doesn't mean she's not artistic. Love is universal, and it is human and she has explored that in so many different ways. She's also written some pretty hard-hitting songs in other ways - sorrows, IVY, mad world, etc. As others have mentioned, PQ has some dark songs too, and lyrically is on point. As does Love Songs. But I find Ayu's lyrics to be much more adult now than earlier - and while certain of her older songs will always hit me someplace that pulls up something from when I was younger, I appreciate the variety of songs she has now - from complicated feelings, to saying screw it I want to party and have a good time.

Myth #4: Sales (good or bad) is any measure of artistry. I see arguments on both ends here, but sales has nothing to do with artistry. Also, if you want to talk about trends and analytics, do some benchmarking - even with greatly reduced sales, the only ones doing better than Ayu are Namie, Hikki, and the AKB family. Calling her recent works a "flop" means that 80% of the Japanese music market is not even relevant.

As for other random tidbits, GUILTY definitely is toward the bottom of her list of albums - there's nothing wrong with it, and it has some solid songs, but it's pretty meh overall. Again, as someone who has been around for most of her career I can say it is NOT a holy grail album, just because a handful of foreign fans think so. It was her first album to NOT go #1, so based on previous logic, it was a flop and the wrong direction to go. CNN Talk Asia was an international program, not a US broadcast. As foreign fans, there really is SO MUCH about the Japanese market, psychology, and tastes that gets lost - yet that doesn't stop people from talking like they know what the issue with Ayu is. And don't get me wrong, there are a lot of different things I would LOVE to see Ayu do differently, or that I think would help her career. But, at the end of the day, I'm not unhappy with her output and I don't think she wants to do those things.

[Andrenekoi]

^I will just disagree with the point about maybe Koda being a better performer than BoA. If it's about the dancing, Koda simply has no chance. :B I have a strong dislike for BoA, but is one of the handful pop performers out there who could actually make a living out of just dancing, while a lot of people considered to be dancing legends (Namie, Britney, etc) never really reached that place.

If it's about other aspects of performer than I will not discuss it because I don't really care about Koda as a performer and I am really biased on that.

I also agree people should keep in mind what is the core ability of the artist...

Utada Hikaru is a musician. I expect more interesting music from her than I expect from most.

BoA is a dancer. She releases music so she can perform to them.

Namie Amuro is an entertainer, she also releases music so she can perform to them and keep people entertained during her performance.

I would say Ayu is a storyteller. And most of the time, her artistic choices are based on how she feels the story she is telling will work the best.

The nature of the market will make everyone of them to overlap from their biggest talent in order to stay around, but they will be naturally weaker on areas that aren't theirs. Like asking Celine Dion's level of vocals from Madonna, and Madonna's performance level from Celine Dion.

[Chibi-Chan]

For me, Ayu's albums went downhill in quality after (miss)understood. Whereas she was redefining her sound up until that album for mostly every release, almost everything after 2006 fell short in comparison. Secret, GUILTY, NEXT LEVEL and Rock 'n' Roll Circus basically have no own identity sound wise and one could easily switch songs around on those releases and it wouldn't matter. Love songs finally was an album which's songs you couldn't randomly replace with songs from other albums. Same goes for Party Queen. Even if one doesn't like the album, it had it's own identity. Then LOVE again, Colours and A ONE followed and even though there were some good songs here and there, as albums they weren't anything special and most songs are pretty forgetable.
Actually the quality in music went downhill again. Even though Secret, GUILTY, NEXT LEVEL and Rock 'n' Roll Circus were all pretty similar in sound, they had great songs, whereas a lot of songs on later releases were more like what orbitalspect called somewhere "and then I recorded this one too" .
M(A)DE IN JAPAN truly was a great release again, the album has a consistent theme regarding lyrics and sound and finally I felt she put a lot of energy and thought into an album again.
But to some it up: since the release of (miss)understood in 2006 there are only three albums which are really worth listening from start to finish, because she actually has something to tell through lyrics and music.
Even though the quality of her releases drastically went downhill over the last decade, I still found her to be a great performer and loved watching her concerts until Premium Showcase. After that tour every new one suffered the fate of her later album releases, they simply lack every bit of originality. What's worth is, her whole stage presence is gone. The woman who was once able to move to to tears by just standing there singing now doesn't sing at all anymore and is instead flailing around on stage trying to appear as desperate as possible. The stage presence and strenght she once had on stage is completely gone and there is no way I will ever understand how the Ayu who performed A Song for xx the way she did at her dome tour (and whom I fell in love with) could become the Ayu performing the same song the way she did when I went to see her live this April.
What also was a real no go for me was that she decided two times now for her TA tours not to have a live band and go with more dancers instead. I'm sorry, but if she would care about music just a bit at this point, she would understand that a live band is essential to every good concert.

Also what really disappointed me was that she chose not to celebrate her 20th anniversary at all. Tge way I see it this isn't only her anniversary, but also the anniversary of her fans.
I'm a fan since I'm 12 years old, that means since 15 years now and more than half of my life. I spent a lot of money on Ayu, like many other fans did. We deserve a little bit to celebrate. It would have been so easy for her to do whatever for this anniversary. A lot of my favourite artists had their 20th (or whatever anniversary) already last year and they did a lot of different things to celebrate it. Ranging from releasing a free song as a thank you via their website, doing free lives, rerecording entire albums, doing a short tour for every single album they ever released, letting other friends/musicians write songs for them as an anniversary gift and release them as an album to etc. etc. There are so many possibilities to celebrate a 20th anniversary together with your fans and to show at least a little you're greatful they supoorted you over all those years. Ayu did nothing. And no, adding 20th anniversary to the title of a half assed tour, you yourself say isn't a good one, doesn't count. Not at all.
Even though I complaine a lot, I still buy her releases and still support her. She has been an important part of my life way too long that I simply could give up and I stayed because I really think she could do amasing things again. But with this "anniversary" and shitty tour I feel as if she doesn't care about music nor her fans at all anymore.