Why I think Ayumi's sales have fallen...

[freedreamer]

Agree with emiko

For some, Ayu's "magic" (or so u call it) is gone..but for others it has just started or even reignited.

[*Petit*]

Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer

lol. I've already said the reasons why and I don't know how I can say it any better. I've already said that there is no point in saying one thing is more "western" than another because at their core, all Japanese pop is western. I don't see the point in getting into the degrees of westernization of each artist because that will always be extremely subjective and all of them are already westernized anyways. Don't Look Back is not an Arabian song, it is a pop song. Green is a pop song, etc etc. There is nothing about the melody or arrangement of those songs that isn't heavily influenced by the west - true old style Japanese music really hardly exists anymore. I shouldn't have to do research on the history of Japanese music and the origin of pop music in Japan for you. I don't mean to sound snippy, but I can only say the same thing so many times. If i were to go into extreme detail it would have to be some long essay about the westernization of the modern world and the Wests projection of how it sees other cultures onto those cultures itself, and I already did that in college.

Actually I think establishing some sort of characteristics that makes the japanese pop music different from the US one or even UK one etc interesting. Because, no matter its origins, we all know it's different in certain respects the way it appears today, whether this is because of a different musical tradition, different taste of the targeted audience or different people producing the music. We all know ALL pop music has the same roots, there's no point in even discussing that, but despite that I'm sure you'll agree that the developement of *** mainstream music has taken a different direction than that of the biggest music market?

It's like japanese animé (basically cartoons), that strated out as a purely imported product but developed into something specifically japanese within the genre. Same thing goes for the music.

Of the top of my head I can think of quite a number of things, track lenght (being mentioned in the first post) of a-side being one of them.

[Michan]

Originally Posted by emiko

This thread just...evolved into something insane! lol

Are we discussing how Americanization affects sales?

Honestly...I don't really think Japanese people care or even think about what music sounds "American" and what doesn't lol They, just like every other country, have people who like this genre, people who like that genre, etc...

imo Sales in Japan have very little to do with the actual music being produced, and very much to do with many other things...like everywhere else...therefore negating the entire relevancy of the discussion between her old and new music lol and people's opinions of what that difference means for sales.

I totally agree with you =D. I don't think japanese people thinks "ohhh it's too western".. " no it's too rockish" .. "ohh still j-pop" to buy some album. Because who cares? Really =P. I really don't think this affect much the sales -_-. Also I don't think after 12 years of career Ayu still doing music only based on sales. C'mon this is pretty obvious. She don't change her style thinking "ohh this is going to sell more than the other album".

[sugarbasil]

Just a little mod note in here: a whole bunch of posts were trashed, but I just want to let you guys know that don't be too upset about any of your posts going in or anything. It was a very passive trash run, if that makes any sense. A lot of posts weren't offensive or anything, it's just that you couldn't really tell if they were on topic or off or what they were. It was just a sort of "grey area posts" moving elsewhere kind of trashing...a very "should it, shouldn't it?" sort of thing. So I'm sorry if there are any posts in there you don't really feel should be. Just wanted to clean up the thread a bit.


On topic: I don't really have much to say, because I haven't read more than the last 4 pages. But I feel like I should write something on the topic now that I'm posting.

So in response to the first post (and I'm sure this was responded to many a time by now), I only really want to say that the argument you (the OP) posed seems to be based heavily, if not entirely, on a strong opinion. Every paragraph was based on how you feel specifically. And honestly, I couldn't feel more opposed to every claim you made. It's very rare that I've felt so contradictory and oppositional to an Ayu fan. I want to argue everything you said (though I won't, mostly due to laziness but also because I feel that much detailing wouldn't be necessary). It's almost as though you're stating how you feel is exactly how everyone in the Ayu community feels and has felt for the last 4 years. It wasn't so much as an "I'm stating my opinion as fact" as a "I feel that I speak for everyone when I say..." sort of thing. It was an odd sensation. I felt like I was reading from a history article or documentary. O_o And all I could think the whole time was, "no no, I have to fix this. Who's the editor of this company? Get me their phone number!"

That said, I think GUILTY is her weakest album, I love the aesthetics and concept of NEXT LEVEL more than 90% of her albums, I think RnRC has more songs with intros than any other album, I think her interludes in RnRC are almost the best she's ever had second ONLY to those on RAINBOW (however, I am a classical music lover and I adore symphony music. I have a high level of respect for it. The only kind of interlude I would love more would be a jazz inspired one), and I think Namie Amuro is THEE most Americanized female Japanese artist. I think she would be the best artist out of everyone to go into the American market.

As for why I personally think her sales have dropped:
1) CD sales generally and internationally have dropped.
2) She has a lot of stigma attached to her name nowadays. Take that as an opinion if you will. However, I will neither explain nor try to convince anyone of that statement (I don't care if you ask me to). One's opinion on this particular topic is static, fixed. You either agree or don't. And her having a stigma is my personal opinion based on observations from my own experiences. And it is a pretty heavy influence on why her sales have dropped, in my opinion.
3) Her fanbase dropped over time (in different gradations) with the change of her voice her loss of hearing, separation with Tomoya, and the higher use of English lyrics.
4) Fanbases drop over time period, with every artist.
5) New, fresh artists have emerged every year, sparking new, increased interests that must be shared with old ones. Subsequently, you can't afford to follow every interest, and sacrifices must be made. Compare it to your other obsessions. Maybe every Monday night you go swing dancing (because it's ****ing awesome). But then you find one day that you're absolutely obsessed with a certain TV show and there's a new episode on Monday night. You decide you want to see the episode instead. From there on out, you have to decide if you'd rather go swing dancing or watch the new shows on Monday nights.
6) People like variety, they like change (well, most people). The human race gets bored easily. We need things to keep our attention by keeping it new. That's why companies change the packaging and logos of products every few years. A long-running artist like Ayu needs to keep spicing it up constantly in order to keep fans. That puts a lot of responsibility on her. There are high demands on her. And that's exactly it: fans have high demands and there are an abundance of new-coming artist for them to fall back on if she disappoints. Fans want original, original, original, because let's face it: what else are they hanging around for? No one wants to hear the same thing. And that's very difficult for an artist who's been around this long to product 100% original. So inevitably, so won't produce what they want or at least not enough of it. And they leave, because there are 2000x more artists out there that are 100% new and original to them.
7) I don't think she's nearly as Americanized as other artists, and Americanized music never hurt an artist in the foreign market (at least, not most of the time), unfortunately.
8) She made her image on pop music. Guess what? It's not all pop anymore. Actually, she kind of did a 180 once or twice along the lines. And I don't think the Jrockers are going to be all like, "OMG! Ayu, the famous pop diva, is doing rock music now! Let's go buy her CDs and go to her concerts!"
9) Let's face it. She's not in her peak anymore. You have to go down eventually.


Edit: longest post EVER. No one's going to read that. XD

[truehappiness]

Pssst, I read it all.

You've basically said everything and then some! GJ, sugarbasil.

[emi♡]

(pssst) (me too)

(and I agree with you...I also think sometimes we as fans, and especially overseas fans, forget about #2 and #8)

(andrenekoi: likewise )

[primavera♥]

@sugarbasil:

i couldnt have agreed with anything on this thread more. ive been waiting for that

[channy]

Originally Posted by waterballoon

Ayu is a rocker at heart, I'm pretty sure she wants to sing and produce rock songs anyway, so basically EVERYTHING ABOUT AYU IS STAGED, PLANNED AND EXECUTED

Thank you for writing this! It absolutely fits to my own opinion

[tourniquet]

I don't see why it shouldn't be considered pop music anymore? it still applies to the usual schemes.
talkin' 2 myself and Mirrorcle World took chances, but in their core elements they're still more pop than rock, no? (Microphone too, to cite the newest example)

because let's face it: what else are they hanging around for? No one wants to hear the same thing. And that's very difficult for an artist who's been around this long to product 100% original. So inevitably, so won't produce what they want or at least not enough of it. And they leave, because there are 2000x more artists out there that are 100% new and original to them.

I very much agree. though that's the exact same reason for a lot of arguments around here. what may seem original to one person might bore another out of their mind.

[Andrenekoi]

@sugarbasil Read it all to, and couldn't agree more^^

[HELVENEUE]

Originally Posted by sugarbasil

Edit: longest post EVER. No one's going to read that. XD

read it. YES.

I sincerely apologize that my writing gave some people an excuse to act like monkeys and throw their crap at everyone, including myself.

I said what I said because every Ayu album from Secret forward was missing something that made me love her. I've only been a fan since 2006, but the first video I saw from her was "Moments". I remember when my best friend showed me that video I kept watching and listening, thinking, "There is *finally* someone in the world who makes historically good music!"

The only songs I liked from Secret were JEWEL and momentum. Looking back at Ayu's older music, those two songs and PVs were most like RAINBOW and I am...

RAINBOW and I am..., MY STORY, Memorial Address... those are the "magic" that Ayumi had in EVERY song and every album. That's what I meant by my post.

Now, to start the lengthy addressing of posts made over 11 pages of this thread (Yes, I actually went through every post on all 11 pages...):

Originally Posted by PaPaRatZi

he only has made 1 post in the forum.. attention seeker.

This is ridiculous. Sure, I was seeking out attention in the form of insults from you and a number of other fans. I'm glad you delivered. I feel complete now.

Originally Posted by PaPaRatZi

^ thats all fine but id take him more seriously if he wasnt a troll.. 1 post count, and no follow up. hes just posting that for reaction. i bet hes laughing at us all right now!

Right now, I'm laughing at you. I just woke up this morning to see 11 pages worth of replies on a post I thought the admins didn't approve. And I'm not laughing at you for the reason you think I am, I'm laughing because of the very SURREAL assumptions you make about people.

Originally Posted by PaPaRatZi

we should stop replying to this.. hes obviously having fun reading all these

I was asleep?

Originally Posted by AngelSenshi

I know, right? Damn attention seekers, and they just love to get people all riled up...

I'm glad I got you all riled up enough to call me a troll, an attention seeker, an idiot, and half a dozen other insults. I hope people like you enjoy making a person a punching bag for your frustration because you don't like their opinion.

Originally Posted by PaPaRatZi

thats just your opinion.. i think youre not considering the drop in music sales.. this shouldnt be a thread. you could have posted it in an album discussion thread.

This isn't about any particular album, that's why it's not in an album discussion thread. This is about her last 3-4 albums. And it's a bit lengthy and off topic from any other thread I saw at the time.

Originally Posted by Crystal_Ageha

Troll...? Simply an idiot, maybe....? You also pretty much lost me when you said Namie Amuro isn't American-ised, considering Namie's music style is supposed to be WESTERN HIP-HOP/R&B--DUH. But stupid me, I kept reading, just to find other points nearly as bad.... I don't have the energy to type out everything wrong with this post; I lost all my energy - and probably some brain cells - just reading this crap.

This almost left me speechless for a moment. You don't know the first thing about me, yet you have the nerve to call me a troll, an idiot, and claim that my "crap" post cost you "some brain cells"... all in one short paragraph. I could say any number of things in reply to this, all of them insulting, but I will just say this: Think twice next time.

Originally Posted by identity

God, I hate when people make posts like these. Obviously you have to be blinded to not agree with this post or feel the same way about it as you do. lolok.

People are "blinded" by the idea that Ayu should be selling millions still—even me. I know she won't, but I'd at least like to hear the magic again, even if it doesn't sell.

Originally Posted by Crystal_Ageha

^ I just pointed out that this person may be a troll considering, you know, he only has one post, and he uses it to make this long ass post with a bunch of very stupid points (mainly the Namie thing). Some of it was true, but like someone else said, we already knew all this. No reason to post a page worth of crap that's already been discussed over and over, especially whenever it's obviously just for attention.

^ I don't need your attention. I don't know or care to know you after seeing what you've posted just in this thread. It's reasons like this that I waited till now to actually express an opinion. People like you plague these forums, and I don't feel like fighting off "troll! idiot! attention-seeker!" every time I raise my hand around here.

Originally Posted by all.night.raver

I'm not really saying this post per-sey. But a lot of times it seems rabid fans won't even listen to a smidge of constructive criticsm regarding Ayu and everything she does and/or releases.

Well, I will say that my post was a bit harsh, but not worthy of people making me a target to fire their guns at.

Originally Posted by SheFliesHigher

Huh? You need to be clearer about some of your terminology. What do you mean by "Americanized"? What's an American song like and why does Namie Amuro not sound like that but Ayu does? What do you mean by "simple lyrics"? And do you honestly think the general public puts so much weight in INTROS? Gimme a break! The general public likes a catchy hook and a singable chorus.

You make these weird comments like "remember when Ayu fans wouldn't stop singing 'Real Me' and 'Duty'"? Those are 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT songs! And lots of people would say "Real Me" is "Americanized" pop gibberish for many reasons, not the least of which being it's one of her first songs to EVER have English! What makes these 2 songs similar that doesn't make Blue Bird (popular and awesome according to you) and Born to Be (crap and unpopular according to you) similar? BTW, did you forget Born to Be was the theme of the winter Olympics....?

You're talking a bunch of nonsense, man.

Americanized, as defined by a common dictionary, means to "make or become American in character". What that means is that the simple guitar and beat tracks like Last Links are Ayumi Americanizing her music.

Your post is incredibly erratic, but I will touch on the intro bit. Some of the lowest selling albums worldwide were albums that were involved with the "Loudness Wars" of the 1990s-2000s. When the quality of music dropped, so did sales. Lady Gaga's "Bad Romance" was an amazing song—her catchiest and most memorable yet—but tanked because the quality of the recording was bad... that's why it never reached #1 here in the US. A lot comes into play with recordings.

If artists maintain consistency, they can expect decent sales. Ayu has been mostly consistent, but she doesn't focus on putting the magic into every song like she used to.

BTW, I did know that Born to Be... was used in the Winter Olympics. And I'm sorry if you got the impression that I thought it was complete and utter ****. I never said that. I just didn't like the song.

Originally Posted by PaPaRatZi

^ sorry but waterballonn you are sounding so stupid right now.. hes a certified troll. 1 post.

it sounds like youre both unhappy with ayu but dont have the guts to tell what you feel and are finally feeling happy that theres a thread on her "falling music quality". so to make up for your lack of courage you both side with the troll and try your best to slam down everyone elses opinions on ayu which is postivie.

wow, it actually took you 4 pages to realize that?

whats wrong with AHS today??

I'm tired of this.

Really? I just checked my ass, and there's no certificate or branding saying "100% Organic Troll". Nobody slammed down your positive opinion on Ayumi. If you weren't illiterate, you'd have understood in my original post that I LOVE Ayu. I have every amazing thing to say about her... I think she's just not making her music from her heart and thinking outside the box like she used to. I want the magic of Ayumi back, even if it doesn't sell.

Originally Posted by InoriNoUta

^ But we CAN infer that there's something strange here, considering the OP hasn't even shown up to repost his/her thoughts after five pages of discussion lol.

Hi.

Originally Posted by ShiSeido

Maybe he's just leaning back and enjoying. At least I would do so, if so many people'd be discussing because of my post xD

Right now, I'm annoyed. I've sorted through 11 pages of threads to find quite a few ridiculous assumptions about me as a person and my intentions as a poster. You might be annoyed too if half a dozen people were assuming the worst about you because you said something that was on your mind and from your heart.

Originally Posted by InoriNoUta

True! I'd probably have fun watching the storm I created, too.

I'm having a blast. Really. I'm about ready to blast off into outer space with my little box of insults from this thread and spend eternity crossing the farthest reaches of space to share them with other forms of life because they're JUST THAT DAMN GOOD.

Originally Posted by Piccolo

Well, this is certainly one of the better first posts I've read in a while.

Thank you. I considered trying to advertise genital enlargement pills or private webcam shows in my first post, but I was just feeling really let down by the new album at the time.

Originally Posted by Cherry Dynamite

This is why I never label music.
It's a song and if you enjoy it why do you have to think about if it's too western or whatever.

Ayumi music was "Ayumi's Music". It wasn't Pop. It was Ayumi. I love the music, but it's missing the magic that made every Ayumi song 5 years ago an aural delight.

Originally Posted by xLitax

Why don't we all just shut up and stop arguing.

This person wasn't even offensive to anyone, including Ayu, in their post, and yet people are going psychotic over it.

I don't know why this person decided to pretty much join a forum just to say this. They must have known some people would start defending Ayu.

Actually, nobody's been defending Ayu. They've been insulting me... just insulting me. Not one comment has been "You're a troll because you don't think Ayumi is the greatest!"... they've been "You're a troll/idiot/attention-seeker etc." No mention of Ayu. Not one.

Originally Posted by me0wie

don't know if i'm within topic, but i miss the introductions to songs (i.e. I am... album) Some of the songs don't seem to flow as well and feels a little abrupt in Guilty...

That's what I've noticed. I notice SO MUCH on Rock'n'Roll Circus and NEXT LEVEL that it's scary. I almost wondered if the interludes on Rock'n'Roll Circus were actually meant to be on the album when I heard them.

Originally Posted by Nackar_91

Wow, I never thought this was going to be such a huge discussion. I don't think her work has decreased in quality at all. It has CHANGED, that's for sure. I always notice how, the longer you've been a fan, the more difficult it is for you to accept your favourite artist won't simply be making the same music all her artistisc life. (This isn't true for everyone, of course, but it's just something I've noticed a lot!)

As for her voice. I too think she sang the best around 2003-2004. To be honest, I just plain hate her voice the way it was at the beginning of her career. So high-pitched and squeaky ... it makes it really hard for me to like her songs from that time.

I just loved her from 2000-2005/2006. She was so amazing. And it wasn't that she had a better voice or had better lyrics... the production just had this... It was an aural delight. That's all I can call it.

Originally Posted by truehappiness

You missed my edit. HDU.

Yeah, seriously. Ayu basically sold out the final two shows (20,000+ seats) for AT10 at Yoyogi in ONE MINUTE.

Site: Attention! Tickets go on sale at 10:00am!
-10:00am comes-
Fans: Yay! I can get tickets!
-10:01am comes-
Site: SOLD OUT.

-dies-

Because if there is ONE thing Ayumi has NEVER stopped doing to the top, it's her concerts. She will always sell out because the production is no smaller now than it was 8 years ago. I still remember seeing the boat in pictures from one of her recent A tours... I don't think it matters if an Ayumi album sells only 10 copies, her tours will remain sold out for a long time.

Originally Posted by truehappiness

I think a lot of that might have to do with the fact that 2 composers (that Ayu has been using QUITE often) basically dominated the album tracks. She really needs to spread her albums out a bit more instead of basically making CMJK/Yuta/Tetsuya do EVERYTHING. I would say that GUILTY, NEXT LEVEL, and Rock'n'Roll Circus have this "problem"...

I never considered this. This may be the issue. I know that Yuuta and Kazuhiro have changed a lot, production-wise, but Kazuhiro and Yuuta made some of the magic.


Once again, I'm sorry to everyone. And I'm sorry a select number of people had parents that didn't teach them proper manners.

I'm not entirely sure whether to keep posting on here after this, but we'll see what happens.

Thank you!

-Joshua

[jimex289]

Her sales have fallen as a result of the natural passage of time. Everything can be summed up in that one sentence. Look at 99% of legendary musical acts or artists and you can see such a trend.

@myfavmod

I read it all too. Best post in the thread. I totally agree with the "Americanized" thing. If there is one artist in Japan I think would do well in the U.S., it would have to be Namie.

Great points all around.

[sugarbasil]

OMG, I can't believe you people read all that.

Originally Posted by tourniquet

I don't see why it shouldn't be considered pop music anymore? it still applies to the usual schemes.
talkin' 2 myself and Mirrorcle World took chances, but in their core elements they're still more pop than rock, no? (Microphone too, to cite the newest example)

The best classification of it (in my opinion) would be Pop-Rock. It is neither 100% rock nor 100% pop. 60/40 sometimes, 20/80 other times. However, if you're comparing her newer (post-RAINBOW) music to her older music, there is a much stronger element of rock influence as well as songs that I would consider more rock than pop (for ex., I think Microphone is more rock than pop. Alterna is another). Sure, albums like Duty had quite some rock influence, but I don't think too many people on here need arguing that GUILTY is a much more rock-influenced album than say LOVEppears or I am... The whole Europop and electropop phase was going on back then during her peak, and um, lol, GUILTY sure as hell ain't no Europop.

That's something that I think gives artists like Namie and Utada an edge on Ayu. The music styles that got them popular are sort of timeless. Ayu worked that Gal and Europop image back then. But now that fad is over. Her trademark image is outdated. Whereas Namie worked the R&B/hip hop scene, which is far from being run out. And Utata, well...I don't know exactly what you'd call that kind of style (blues? relaxing pop? what?), but it's certainly not done for. Ayu's trademark music is out-of-date and so she went on making music of any type that she wants. She's not defined to one genre. but it also means that she's not defined as pop, either, and that's what she was build upon.

So if Ayu kept making songs like she did during LOVEppears and I am... and kept that look, would Japanese fans buy? Probably not as much as some people would think. Sure, they may think those songs were legendary, but that kind of music isn't as popular anymore. And then she risks not being "up-to-date" and going into another type of market, an old-school one and probably a niche one nowadays. And then there will be people who say she's unoriginal and can't come up with anything new. And she's a person herself - she can't just not evolve. She's going to have new experiences and new emotions. She can't mentally stay in one era.

(btw, before someone says it, I don't really know if Europop was necessarily the right genre I was aiming for...maybe it was, but I think there's a different word I wanted)

Edit: I deleted the rest. It was stupid.

[Andrenekoi]

^Well... my problem with RnRC is that IMO almost every track there sounds like something she already did, while some people around here really found it something new... While some people hated Next Level cuz it was released when electro pop was the "it" thing, but I really liked how she turned this genre something hers, and how she added underground elements to it in order to make it different (video game music). Obviously, me and the people who loved RnRC don't like the same sides of Ayu... what doesn't mean this or that album is bad, just that different people expect different things...

I expect to be an Ayu fan for my entire life, but I don't expect to like all of her albums or all of her sides... she is not working for me, she is working for herself, and she can do whatever she wants... I follow her cuz (and when) I like what I see, but is not her mission on earth to please me...

When u get tired of an artist, it's not ur fault (u have no obligation to love anyone) nor the artist (they have no obligation on pleasing nobody)... it just happened that 2 different people that shared an interest started having different ones^^

[sugarbasil]

@joshuapetersen You totally beat my longest post. x_x

I hadn't even noticed that he had only 1 post. And I certainly didn't even see all that jerkitude in the earlier pages. I'm incredibly glad the drama came down by the time I even got in here (which goes to show that our community can be very mature and get a thread back on track), but guys, someone should have reported all of that. No one even said anything to any of the mods until when I just came on here and made my first post.

And for the record, I don't think he's a troll. It might have been his first post, but he didn't like...attack Ayu or anything in his first post. He didn't say anything to piss people off all that much. I know I saw the same post that you guys did, and he wasn't crazy out of line. While I didn't agree with anything he had said, I know there are people out there that DO agree with some of those things. Maybe he just had a topic to share and it happened to be his first post. He took a risk. One of first posts was utterly stupid. And I haven't seen too many trolls that come on, make only ONE thread and post that's not crazy-ass psychotically offensive or stupid, and then just never come back. It's possible, but just weird.

I'm not saying that it was a very smart post to make as your first thread, but no one should have attacked him like that. I know I would feel like crap if I said terrible things to a new member who wasn't a troll and then he never came back because of it.

[primavera♥]

^ agreed. much longer and quite frustrating to read really with the things said. *rolls eyes* AHS sometimes. ive been here like 3 or 4 full months and i have drama to supply me for a lifetime. . .

people should just realize for like the 50000 time that theyre not teh same as -insert name here- or -insert name here-. clearly. josh just feels differently about some ayu songs compared to others. while some like me feel differently but am proud of that as i have more variety to suit what feeling i want to hear when listening to ayu. and im happy to be able to feel those from ayus music herself. like Lady Dynamite is the kind of fun that i expect from oshare-kei. but i got it from ayu. sweetness lol. . .
here im going on in a silly non-understandable way. ill stop here

[Zeke.]

Originally Posted by joshuapeterson

Well, I will say that my post was a bit harsh, but not worthy of people making me a target to fire their guns at.
Thank you!

-Joshua

Um, did you realize I was on your side? Lol. I just knew that your comment would start an endless wildfire of AHS-ers freak-outs because some of them/us can't take criticism from Ayu. Lol.

Originally Posted by all.night.raver

Um, did you realize I was on your side? Lol. I just knew that your comment would start an endless wildfire of AHS-ers freak-outs because some of them/us can't take criticism from Ayu. Lol.

Yeah. I was just stating that I didn't think my post was entirely unoffensive.

Thank you honey