[Charts & Rankings] Official Sales & Positions Thread III ~NEXT LEVEL~

[Uemarasan]

Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer

...not enough to totally discount a female fronted bands sales at least. Also, to me, just in general I don't like separating one type of artists sales from another no matter how big the difference might be. Say like comparing Ayu to Johnnys or something - if the public likes something, it will sell regardless of factors like a band, or a solo artist, or a pop group, or male, or female. That's why I never like the argument, "Ayu's doing well(or insert any female artists name) considering there are only men in front of her." Well, so? Just because she is female, that's a good reason to not sell higher? huh? Doesn't make sense to me. What happened to gender equality here? Women artists shouldn't be given a lower sales handicap excuse just because they are women.(If I'm making any sense, lol) It's definitely possible for Ayu and other female artists to sell higher levels (and some still do, though its become rare). That's why I use Dreams Come True as a positive example of that.

I do agree about the sales handicap, as you so aptly put it. It's a trend in fan forums that I've never really subscribed to, and it seems to have come about when J-pop music began to be dominated by male acts versus female acts (I think this was around the time Koda Kumi was at her peak). Fans would come up with "musical recognitions" such as "highest selling female single of the year" or "highest first week sales numbers of the year for a female artist" or something as ridiculous as "highest selling female single of the year released under her original name without a dorama tie-in". I think fans are stretching so that their favorite artists accumulate recognitions and they would feel better knowing that they have accomplished that at least. It's a defense mechanism against waning popularity.

I will have to stick to my guns, though. The makeup of Ayu as an artist is very different from female-fronted bands like DCT. The constancy of collaboration is a critical element to being defined as a band. Ayu is the only constant in all of her music. Composers, arrangers, band members have changed time and again. For me, that makes her a solo artist. DCT, on the other hand, has Miwa Yoshida AND Masato Nakamura as constants in all of DCT's music. That's more than one person. For me, that makes them a band.

Also, I would like to think men and women are equal in the world of J-pop, but I can't deny that gender difference still plays an important role in sales and popularity, even if its influence is almost imperceptible. Just to cite an example: SMAP may recover from the recent scandal, but I don't think a Hello Project! girl will be granted the same leniency. As much as I hate to think so, being a man and being a woman, it still accounts for something.

[Andrenekoi]

Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer

But to me, that's just a technical difference - not something that's actually real. A lot of female fronted bands, are nothing but idol acts similar to female solo artists - girl next door is the best example of this. Otsuka Ai IS her own band because she writes everything. Yoshida Miwa, also writes the songs and is the main face of Dreams Come True. Like I said, imo - the difference between Ayu and those kinds of groups of really negligible. I'm sure that if Ayumi were called the "Ayumi Hamasaki Band" or something, people here would still find a way to discount Dreams Come True's higher sales.

Uemarasan: I technically agree with you. But like I said, I really don't think that the difference is that large between Ayu and female fronted bands - not enough to totally discount a female fronted bands sales at least. Also, to me, just in general I don't like separating one type of artists sales from another no matter how big the difference might be. Say like comparing Ayu to Johnnys or something - if the public likes something, it will sell regardless of factors like a band, or a solo artist, or a pop group, or male, or female. That's why I never like the argument, "Ayu's doing well(or insert any female artists name) considering there are only men in front of her." Well, so? Just because she is female, that's a good reason to not sell higher? huh? Doesn't make sense to me. What happened to gender equality here? Women artists shouldn't be given a lower sales handicap excuse just because they are women.(If I'm making any sense, lol) It's definitely possible for Ayu and other female artists to sell higher levels (and some still do, though its become rare). That's why I use Dreams Come True as a positive example of that.

And now I've confused myself so much that I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore, haha.



Right, that's kind of the point I was trying to make - it doesn't matter whether they are a band or not, their sales are just simply higher.

It's not we that are saying that a solo female singer and a band with a famale vocalist are different things, Japanese media does this a lot too... Don't know about you, but after reading all the time "the female solo singer with x nº1 albums", "the female solo singer with most this and most that" I'm pretty sure they see those kind of pop acts are different things... And is not that hard to know why... Even if the main singer of a band is a idol, that's nothing near being the "face" of your product... considering that most female pop acts ARE very "looks-based", not only in Japan, but everywhere in the world... almost everywhere in the world the "pop queens" and "pop princess" are fashion icons and trend setters, even if their music is aclaimed by public and critics alike... For some reason, the "pop queen" format is loosing popularity in Japan since 2003~2004 and every female solo artist is selling less, even the new top ones aren't selling as good as the bands or boybands... Even when the vocalist of a very successful band is an idol girl, usualy she goes solo after some time (but still, besides Namie, can't think about any girl band or band with female idol vocals that kept on the top for long time in Japan)

Maybe the reason is that a lot of the girls who supported the female singers (taking in consideration that most of theirs fanbases ARE female) are moving on to Boy Bands (what is very interesting considering that Japanese women are finding it difficult to mary cause most of men... there aren't as good looking, into fashion and don't know how to keep a conversation as the idol boys (even if they have producers and photoshop in their favor ). In earlier Ayu shows there were more girls in the audience... now it has more variety than other idols shows... and maybe this is not because general public went to see Ayu now, It's just 'cause the younger girls stoped going...

DCT and Utada are not looks based acts... But Utada's album this time is in English again, so, maybe this explain the low sales... We can only know for sure how well will she sell when she releases more japanese music.

Ayu's peak is over... her sales are falling since I am... But she is not selling that bad, she is selling the same amount a lot of newer girl top acts are selling... This kind of pop act is declining as a whole in Japan, but she stills on top of it... So, IMO she is selling well =)

By the way... she was never the TOP SELLING MONSTER people says she was, apart from just one single, she was never the best selling considering individual releases, besides loveppears-duty era she is more a singer with A LOT of average-good selling stuff than a singer with amazing selling individual products...

[SunshineSlayer]

Originally Posted by Uemarasan

I do agree about the sales handicap, as you so aptly put it. It's a trend in fan forums that I've never really subscribed to, and it seems to have come about when J-pop music began to be dominated by male acts versus female acts (I think this was around the time Koda Kumi was at her peak). Fans would come up with "musical recognitions" such as "highest selling female single of the year" or "highest first week sales numbers of the year for a female artist" or something as ridiculous as "highest selling female single of the year released under her original name without a dorama tie-in". I think fans are stretching so that their favorite artists accumulate recognitions and they would feel better knowing that they have accomplished that at least. It's a defense mechanism against waning popularity.

Yes, yes, that is the point I was trying to make in my rambling posts. I'm glad you could state it more aptly than me since my brain feels like scrambled eggs today.

But to me, that also applies to the classification of female fronted bands too. To me, it doesn't matter whether its a solo artist or female fronted band that is higher in the sales because just being in a band does not mean that your sales will automatically be higher, often times its the opposite. So I don't see a problem with comparing DCTs sales to Ayu's sales, for the same reasons as you just outlined above.

Originally Posted by Uemarasan

Also, I would like to think men and women are equal in the world of J-pop, but I can't deny that gender difference still plays an important role in sales and popularity, even if its influence is almost imperceptible. Just to cite an example: SMAP may recover from the recent scandal, but I don't think a Hello Project! girl will be granted the same leniency. As much as I hate to think so, being a man and being a woman, it still counts for something.

I would say that HP is an extreme example, because they are almost exclusively supported by Otaku that actually believe that the girls are perfect pinnacles of virginity and then when that image is tarnished they feel betrayed. (which is insane imo.)

I do agree that when it comes to scandals it seems that women are treated more harshly. But that doesn't mean that women are treated inherently badly in sales when it comes to comparing mens sales to women sales. (non-scandalous women I mean, though Namie is one example of how women are becoming more able to return from scandal) As I mentioned in the previous post, I think most male artists have simply done a better job of relating to the public and knowing what will sell for them better than most women artists have done. Although if you go back to the 70s, 80s, and some of the 90s, I would actually venture that it was actually the opposite then. From watching old music shows and charts I see a higher presence of women than today.

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

By the way... she was never the TOP SELLING MONSTER people says she was, apart from just one single, she was never the best selling considering individual releases, besides loveppears-duty era she is more a singer with A LOT of average-good selling stuff than a singer with amazing selling individual products...

That's another good point. Though there is no doubt that she was HUGE at one time, rarely was she ever actually the best selling artist. But, there were a few years there were she did in fact have a large amount of influence.

[njanjayrp]

Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer

But couldn't you argue then that Ayu is in a band too? Because technically she is. Honestly, I don't see much of a difference between Ayu and Yoshida Miwa. I think it just suits peoples purpose to not count Dreams Come True as a female artist - when she is in fact a female and an artist. - same goes for other bands like Every Little Thing and Girl Next Door. I think the line between Ayu and female fronted bands is a very fine one and negligible imo. In fact I would say that Ayu is even more of a band than many of the female fronted bands are. (such as Girl Next Door)

Agreed.

Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer

It's like people are saying that DCT is only selling well because its a band, therefore their sales don't count when compared to Ayu. Which is ridiculous imo. DCT also showed that it doesn't matter if you are a female artist, you have the ability to hang up there with the top selling male artists. Most people here seem to act as if its an impossible dream or something to sell as well as male artists and then use that as a reason to excuse whoever their favorite artists low sales are. When in fact those same artists have had sales that matched, exceeded, or at least came close to matching those same male artists in the past. It's not something that's impossible, as DCT proved, but its all in offering a product that people want and enjoy.

I'm not sure what kind of tangent I just went on. lol.

I am not saying that DCT is selling just cuz they are a band But I have a good example of an artist under a stage name that represented a band - "sweetbox" even though Jade was the only one who ever appeared on stage, Geo was doing the composing and arrangements and people thought of sweetbox as a band (duo). They had decent sales considering they weren't really promoted, all their albums reached at least gold status in Japan, now the moment they had to get rid of the name, while both Jade and Geo still worked together on all the Jade Valerie songs, both the albums flopped, the music style they did was pretty much the same thing they did with ADDICTED (which sold around 130k in Japan) yet the albums simple didn't sell.

Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer

....I did. BoAs sales have been in a talespin for a long time.

While I agree that BoA's sales were only going one way since Winter Love, considering that even though Love & Honesty sold around 700k, BEST OF SOUL still managed to sell over a million, while BEST&USA couldn't have possibly sold that much, I at least expected it to outsell THE FACE as it's a best of after all.

[Uemarasan]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

By the way... she was never the TOP SELLING MONSTER people says she was, apart from just one single, she was never the best selling considering individual releases, besides loveppears-duty era she is more a singer with A LOT of average-good selling stuff than a singer with amazing selling individual products...

Have to disagree with this statement. True, except for H, Ayu has not had the top selling single or album of the year. But look at this: A Best is the second best-selling album of its year, I am is the second best-selling album of its year, Rainbow is the second best-selling album of its year (that's three in a row, four including Duty), A Ballads and Memorial Address are both in the top ten selling albums of the year, My Story is in the top ten, (miss)understood is in the top ten, both A Best 2 albums are in the top ten, A Complete is in the top ten.

M is the second best-selling single of the year, evolution is the seventh. All six of her singles released in the Oricon year 2001 are in the top twenty-five. Five in the top twenty. All Rainbow singles are in the top fifteen. Two in the top ten.

Ayu is a singer with amazing selling individual products. You CANNOT go by sales numbers. You have to judge by chart positions for each year, because economics and technology factor in. But most importantly, I think you'd have to look at consistency. Ayu has just been more consistent than others.

[Andrenekoi]

And so it's Next Level, it's on top10 this year =) Maybe it will go down, maybe not, but I think It will stay at least at top 20

[Uemarasan]

Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer

But to me, that also applies to the classification of female fronted bands too. To me, it doesn't matter whether its a solo artist or female fronted band that is higher in the sales because just being in a band does not mean that your sales will automatically be higher, often times its the opposite. So I don't see a problem with comparing DCTs sales to Ayu's sales, for the same reasons as you just outlined above.

Of course. The reason why DCT is still selling is because, well, it's DCT! And not because they're a band.

Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer

I would say that HP is an extreme example, because they are almost exclusively supported by Otaku that actually believe that the girls are perfect pinnacles of virginity and then when that image is tarnished they feel betrayed. (which is insane imo.)

I do agree that when it comes to scandals it seems that women are treated more harshly. But that doesn't mean that women are treated inherently badly in sales when it comes to comparing mens sales to women sales. (non-scandalous women I mean, though Namie is one example of how women are becoming more able to return from scandal) As I mentioned in the previous post, I think most male artists have simply done a better job of relating to the public and knowing what will sell for them better than most women artists have done. Although if you go back to the 70s, 80s, and some of the 90s, I would actually venture that it was actually the opposite then. From watching old music shows and charts I see a higher presence of women than today.

I was just outlining the difference between how the public would react to a male idol versus a female idol. The very perception of Hello Project! girls as creatures of vestal virtue speaks a lot about what is expected of women in society versus what is expected of a Johnny's Jimusho boy. Would Erika Sawajiri's faux pas have become as public a scandal had it been an unsmiling, moody actor instead? I doubt it.

But all in all, I'm just saying that gender does play a role in it all. Right now, as you said, it's simply a matter of male artists being more popular with the public, and so more sales vis-a-vis the female folk, and I do think it has something to do with them being male. Johnny's Jimusho is certainly not making money from artistic integrity. It has more to do with the marketing of their boys as, well, Johnny's Jimusho "boys" more than anything.

[SunshineSlayer]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

And so it's Next Level, it's on top10 this year =) Maybe it will go down, maybe not, but I think It will stay at least at top 20

I would be surprised if it stayed in the top 10. But it all really depends on who else will be releasing albums this year. I think Arashi at least for sure will be releasing something by the end of the year (probably a best of album). If Johnny's doesn't, they'd be very stupid. Plus now they need to recoup all that money they are going to be losing over the naked SMAP scandal. I think an Arashi best album this year will push almost everyone in the top 10 down. Kat-tun is releasing an album next week, so we will have to see how that does - though I don't imagine it will outsell their last album.

[noidea]

^ And how much did their last album sell? It' hard to follow your discussions as somebody who doesn't know the sales, could you please add them in () in your next posts? I would really appreciate that. It sucks a little if you have to use wikipedia for every single thing metioned though the people writing about it know the sales and could easily write them down, it makes it hard to follow the discussion even though you want to(at least for me)

EDIT: When did I get over 1000 posts? o.0 Wow xD

[Uemarasan]

Originally Posted by noidea

^ And how much did their last album sell? It' hard to follow your discussions as somebody who doesn't know the sales, could you please add them in () in your next posts? I would really appreciate that. It sucks a little if you have to use wikipedia for every single thing metioned though the people writing about it know the sales and could easily write them down, it makes it hard to follow the discussion even though you want to(at least for me)

EDIT: When did I get over 1000 posts? o.0 Wow xD

Around 300,000

[noidea]

Thank you^^ So the new release likely to be no competition for NEXT LEVEL?

[njanjayrp]

Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer

I would be surprised if it stayed in the top 10. But it all really depends on who else will be releasing albums this year. I think Arashi at least for sure will be releasing something by the end of the year (probably a best of album). If Johnny's doesn't, they'd be very stupid. Plus now they need to recoup all that money they are going to be losing over the naked SMAP scandal. I think an Arashi best album this year will push almost everyone in the top 10 down. Kat-tun is releasing an album next week, so we will have to see how that does - though I don't imagine it will outsell their last album.

If they kicked Kusano from NEWS just cuz he was drinking under-aged I can't possibly imagine what they'll do to Kusanagi. J should release an arashi best of, it might even sell close to million (if not even more). KAT-TUN will be lucky to sell over 200k with their album.

[Uemarasan]

Originally Posted by noidea

Thank you^^ So the new release likely to be no competition for NEXT LEVEL?

All we can do is wait and see I was actually expecting Next Level to outsell Trick, going by the singles sales, but album sales really are a whole different beast in J-pop.

[SunshineSlayer]

Originally Posted by noidea

Thank you^^ So the new release likely to be no competition for NEXT LEVEL?

Most likely not. But you never want to say never because sometimes sales do strange things.

Also, to add more info to a topic a couple of pages ago about KAT-TUN 8 straight days at the Tokyo Dome: according to articles, all 440,000 seats sold out in one day.(actually the article states that they all sold out in minutes!) They have now also added 2 additional Tokyo Dome dates.

Originally Posted by njanjayrp

If they kicked Kusano from NEWS just cuz he was drinking under-aged I can't possibly imagine what they'll do to Kusanagi. J should release an arashi best of, it might even sell close to million (if not even more). KAT-TUN will be lucky to sell over 200k with their album.

Actually drinking and smoking underage is such a big deal in Japan, it is probably dealt with more harshly than public indecency. Also, Kusano was no where near the fame level of Kusanagi. That may just be the SMAP fan in me hoping for the best though. And yes, I think an Arashi best of could sell huge and kind of break the standard of low selling Johnny's albums simply because its only now that a lot of people are noticing their past singles and did not buy them originally.

[Ayumiko]

Yea I think an arashi best of will do really well. I don't expect next level will remain in the top 10 by the end of the year.

I really wonder what avex/ayu will do for releases this year to make up for the low sales. She can't release another best album...I wonder if we'll finally get our 3A or 4A single...I actually would like another remix album like eurobeat or orchestra. Her first 2 eurobeat albums sold a lot.

[krazeyo]

^It'd be about time for a 3A single! Ayu-mix 6 Gold/Silver sold decently, but there's no way any of her remix albums (possibly even original albums) will sell like her first 2 eurobeat albums (500k was it?)

I think the way Avex made up for low revenue from Ayu this year was increase the amount of days for AT09, and also decrease the budget. (I haven't really seen anything WOW! like her last few tours).

[KarenPang]

Originally Posted by Ayumiko

Yea I think an arashi best of will do really well. I don't expect next level will remain in the top 10 by the end of the year.

I'm very sure that an ARASHI best of will roll soon this year as it's the group's 10th anniversary

it will be silly for J-Storm NOT to do so & it has been 5 years since their last single compilation Arashi 5x5: The Best Selection of 2002-2004 was released so there better be 1

& this means that there probably be no chances of a new studio album this year

in terms of sales , I really don't know if it can do well since it's the norm that Johnny's albums can't sell as good/well as their singles but hopefully I will be proven wrong in due time

I really wonder what avex/ayu will do for releases this year to make up for the low sales. She can't release another best album...I wonder if we'll finally get our 3A or 4A single...I actually would like another remix album like eurobeat or orchestra. Her first 2 eurobeat albums sold a lot.

Originally Posted by krazeyo

^It'd be about time for a 3A single! Ayu-mix 6 Gold/Silver sold decently, but there's no way any of her remix albums (possibly even original albums) will sell like her first 2 eurobeat albums (500k was it?)

I think the way Avex made up for low revenue from Ayu this year was increase the amount of days for AT09, and also decrease the budget. (I haven't really seen anything WOW! like her last few tours).

good point you made guys & yes it has been a while since ayumi last pulled out a triple & let alone a 4 A-side single

wasn't BLUE BIRD supposed to be a triple A-side & then eventually it became a double A ?

I missed & now suddenly O_O , must go & play the single again

[SunshineSlayer]

Originally Posted by Uemarasan

I was just outlining the difference between how the public would react to a male idol versus a female idol. The very perception of Hello Project! girls as creatures of vestal virtue speaks a lot about what is expected of women in society versus what is expected of a Johnny's Jimusho boy. Would Erika Sawajiri's faux pas have become as public a scandal had it been an unsmiling, moody actor instead? I doubt it.

Actually, the same is expected of Johnny's as well, though I'm sure most of them have hidden girlfriends on the side. (Just like the HP girls have hidden relationships as well) The Sawajiri thing maybe would not be taken as badly if it were a guy saying it, but it still would be considered incredibly rude and I doubt the guy would get off scot free. Bad public social behavior from either gender isn't taken too lightly.

[njanjayrp]

Originally Posted by Ayumiko

Yea I think an arashi best of will do really well. I don't expect next level will remain in the top 10 by the end of the year.

I really wonder what avex/ayu will do for releases this year to make up for the low sales. She can't release another best album...I wonder if we'll finally get our 3A or 4A single...I actually would like another remix album like eurobeat or orchestra. Her first 2 eurobeat albums sold a lot.

That's because eurobeat was pretty huge back then (+ Ayu was mega popular). And indeed a 4A single and more releases (and TV appearances and carefully chosen tie-ins ) could prolly boost both Ayu's sales and popularity. I miss her more constant single releases.

As for BB being a 3A side, I think that some on-line shops mistaken it for a 3A cuz it had Another Night on it, I might be wrong though.

[KarenPang]

Top 50 Albums Of '09 :

*7 *,332,787 *13,131 NEXT LEVEL / 浜崎あゆみ 09/03/25

& with that a new thread's needed now