Ayu: Anything Goes [XXV]

[Andrenekoi]

There is a missunderstanding over here about a text being poetry done by a japanese person and being traditional japanese poetry. Nobody really claimed Ayu lyrics are the later.

From wikipedia:

Poetry (the term derives from a variant of the Greek term, poiesis, "making") is a form of literature that uses aesthetic and rhythmic[1][2][3] qualities of language—such as phonaesthetics, sound symbolism, and metre—to evoke meanings in addition to, or in place of, the prosaic ostensible meaning.

Ayu's lyrics fits this definition way closer than than you everyday pop music lyric. It could be argued that lyrics aren't poetry, but whatever... This is a pretty useless discussion considering where it is coming from.

Edit:
This is a nice read:
http://bostonreview.net/forum/poetry...nd-song-lyrics

[Zeke.]

Originally Posted by Chibi-Chan

This has nothing to do with what I personally find esthetically pleasing. Her lyrics simply aren't poetry nor art.

This is where you lost me and probably everyone else.

It’s one thing to say her work isn’t poetry, but to say it’s not art?? Everything is art. There is an art to what she does, the order of her words, the choice of words themselves, the story she tells. Writing is art, especially when it’s carefully crafted. A blog post, even a fkn sentence can be art.

[Chibi-Chan]

Poetry (the term derives from a variant of the Greek term, poiesis, "making") is a form of literature that uses aesthetic and rhythmic[1][2][3] qualities of language—such as phonaesthetics, sound symbolism, and metre—to evoke meanings in addition to, or in place of, the prosaic ostensible meaning.

Ayu's lyrics don't fit this wikipedia definition of poetry in any way and I feel as if no one here as an actual interest in poetry. If you really think they are poetry, then please give me a poem analysis of her lyrics and proof your point.
I already said that if there is someone who speaks Japanese and thinks her lyrics are poetry I would truly be interested in an analysis. I discussed her lyrics already with my literature prof at my uni in Tokyo as well as the one here in Hamburg and I can tell you that none of them was impressed in the slightest. My point was that her lyrics may not be poetry but still have very interesting aspects, but both of them did not agree and my arguments were way to weak to proof my point - and I didn't even call her lyrics poetry. So, if anyone here has a good argument as well as a few examples of why her lyrics are poetry, I would actually be really glad to hear them in order to be able to make a more sophisticated argument myself in case I will have to discuss her lyrics again at uni.
I'm open to discuss her lyrics as poetry when someone here is willing to actually GIVE AN EXAMPLE of WHY her lyrics can be seen as poetry. I would honestly be interested in a discussion about that and open to reconsider my standpoint. But all people here do is say "Ayu's lyrics are poetry/poetic because I feel so". This is not an argument and proofs literally nothing.

Edit: I recommend to listen to Bob Dylan's Nobel Lecture on why he thinks his songs are not literature. There are good arguments from his critics why he shouldn't have gotten the Nobel Prize on literature but there are also good arguments why he deserved it. But what I found interesting is what he said himself in his lecture "but songs are unlike literature. They're meant to be sung, not read".
Ayu is miles away from writing lyrics like Dylan does, even though I really like her lyrics. In the end her lyrics could never stand for themselves, unlike Dylan's, because her lyrics would lose a lot of their magic without her voice and the specific composition and arrangement.
Her songs are great because of her lyrics and her lyrics are an important aspect of her songs. But her lyrics need to be heard, not just read, to say it in Dylan's words, in order to evoke the magic they do.

[Kacku]

Originally Posted by Chibi-Chan

But what I found interesting is what he said himself in his lecture "but songs are unlike literature. They're meant to be sung, not read".

This is a great point, and it goes well with the conclusion of the essay Andrenekoi linked:

But that does not mean that song lyrics are poems. They might sometimes accidentally function like poems when taken out of a musical context, but abstracting lyrics from musical information is misleading and beside the point. It seems to me far more productive to ask how lyrics in songs relate to musical information, and how poems relate to the silences (cultural and actual) that surround them, and to recognize that lyrics and poetry, while different genres with different forces and imperatives, have both more and less in common than we might think, and are endeavors of equal value.

What I get from this is that "are Ayu's lyrics poetry" is not really the right question to ask. I think her lyrics contain varying amounts of traditional poetic elements (sound patterning and rhythmic elements at least) and some might even function well when performed as poetry, as in, spoken aloud without music (I never listened to the "poetry reading" version of æternal and can't find it now but I wonder how it sounds and works). But they might not be poetry — because they weren't written to be poetry. And that is perfectly fine, because lyrics are no less worthy, meaningful, or art than poetry (as you also mentioned in an earlier reply).

But that does not mean her lyrics aren't poetic, which seems to be where this whole discussion started: mizuki-7 commented on Ayu as a songwriter, saying "she is gifted and poetic", and you, Chibi-Chan, commented on the topic: "I honestly don't know why people always say her lyrics would be poetic". And I agree with mizuki-7 here because "poetic" means more than "like or relating to poetry" — I think what people often mean by "poetic" is something like "beautiful, touching and thought-provoking". And dictionaries seem to agree: Longman ("having qualities of deep feeling or graceful expression"), Cambridge ("very beautiful or expressing emotion"), Oxford ("Having an imaginative or sensitively emotional style of expression"), Merriam-Webster ("having or expressing the qualities of poetry (as though aesthetic or emotional impact)"). I think Ayu's lyricism fits those descriptions.

So even if Ayu's lyrics aren't poetry, I think they are definitely poetic. And I still think it would be fair to consider them poetry; poetry is such a broad term, and I think poetry is more diverse than you seem to consider it (and personally, I have considered lyrics kind of a subcategory of poetry for a long time). You said poetry follows rules — no, it doesn't. Traditional and codified forms of poetry follow rules but free verse doesn't, and that doesn't make free verse any less "poetry". I've read plenty of poems that don't follow any rules but I don't think anyone would deny that they are poems. And I don't even read a lot of poetry!

(I also want to say I really dislike you saying "I feel as if no one here as an actual interest in poetry"; that is so snobbish and patronizing and comes off aggressive. I also don't agree with your demand for someone to "prove" that Ayu's lyrics are poetry by giving a poetry analysis; you must know how much work you are asking for with that, right? And I'm not sure there's really a way to "prove" that something is poetry anyway.

I hope I'm not coming off aggressive myself, it's not my intention to attack you.)

((I apologize for my abuse of dashes and semicolons. ))

---

I'd love to see discussion of the poetic elements in Ayu's lyrics, detached from the fraught question of whether her lyrics are poetry. I can't think of many examples off the top of my head (because I'm exhausted and I've already spent over two hours writing this reply, way too much), but there are things like the alliteration in connected and the repetitive structure of Ivy's verses and snowy kiss's chorus, and it would be interesting to consider how they are connected to and work with the songs' meanings and messages.

[maxikot]

^ Thank you so much Kacku. 100% my thoughts on the subject.

[DonkeyKongRemix]

Originally Posted by Kacku

This is a great point, and it goes well with the conclusion of the essay Andrenekoi linked:



What I get from this is that "are Ayu's lyrics poetry" is not really the right question to ask. I think her lyrics contain varying amounts of traditional poetic elements (sound patterning and rhythmic elements at least) and some might even function well when performed as poetry, as in, spoken aloud without music (I never listened to the "poetry reading" version of æternal and can't find it now but I wonder how it sounds and works). But they might not be poetry — because they weren't written to be poetry. And that is perfectly fine, because lyrics are no less worthy, meaningful, or art than poetry (as you also mentioned in an earlier reply).

But that does not mean her lyrics aren't poetic, which seems to be where this whole discussion started: mizuki-7 commented on Ayu as a songwriter, saying "she is gifted and poetic", and you, Chibi-Chan, commented on the topic: "I honestly don't know why people always say her lyrics would be poetic". And I agree with mizuki-7 here because "poetic" means more than "like or relating to poetry" — I think what people often mean by "poetic" is something like "beautiful, touching and thought-provoking". And dictionaries seem to agree: Longman ("having qualities of deep feeling or graceful expression"), Cambridge ("very beautiful or expressing emotion"), Oxford ("Having an imaginative or sensitively emotional style of expression"), Merriam-Webster ("having or expressing the qualities of poetry (as though aesthetic or emotional impact)"). I think Ayu's lyricism fits those descriptions.

So even if Ayu's lyrics aren't poetry, I think they are definitely poetic. And I still think it would be fair to consider them poetry; poetry is such a broad term, and I think poetry is more diverse than you seem to consider it (and personally, I have considered lyrics kind of a subcategory of poetry for a long time). You said poetry follows rules — no, it doesn't. Traditional and codified forms of poetry follow rules but free verse doesn't, and that doesn't make free verse any less "poetry". I've read plenty of poems that don't follow any rules but I don't think anyone would deny that they are poems. And I don't even read a lot of poetry!

(I also want to say I really dislike you saying "I feel as if no one here as an actual interest in poetry"; that is so snobbish and patronizing and comes off aggressive. I also don't agree with your demand for someone to "prove" that Ayu's lyrics are poetry by giving a poetry analysis; you must know how much work you are asking for with that, right? And I'm not sure there's really a way to "prove" that something is poetry anyway.

I hope I'm not coming off aggressive myself, it's not my intention to attack you.)

((I apologize for my abuse of dashes and semicolons. ))

---

I'd love to see discussion of the poetic elements in Ayu's lyrics, detached from the fraught question of whether her lyrics are poetry. I can't think of many examples off the top of my head (because I'm exhausted and I've already spent over two hours writing this reply, way too much), but there are things like the alliteration in connected and the repetitive structure of Ivy's verses and snowy kiss's chorus, and it would be interesting to consider how they are connected to and work with the songs' meanings and messages.

I'm just gonna give you a thumbs up real quick...


....on another note....

I took some pretty intense poetry classes for three straight years back when.

A few things that she uses that are at least found in poetry:

-the implementation of assonance and alliteration, thus incorporating literary aesthetics

-the use of rhyme and rhythm.

-and, yes, song lyrics are considered literature (at least according to the college I went to)

-the use of metaphors (take the sandcastlr imagery in Wake Me Up, or the mention of continual rain in Memorial Address to invoke an image and meaning), which can enter into a sort of metaphysical form at times

-some could argue that songs such as A Song for XX uses a type of situational irony in which she sings something to the effect of "I was born alone and I will always be alone," because given her high status, she is never technically alone, but even through this situation she truly is because she's emotionally alone. Take this example with a grain of salt.

I got my BA in Studio Art, and to claim that any music is NOT art is just a logical fallacy.

[tokyoxjapanxfan]

She uses a lot of poetic devices. Not sure I could say ~every~ song is poetic, but many are.

I’ve never come across another song like Connected. (In fact, if anyone knows any other J-POP songs with similar alliteration I’d be interested in hearing them.)

Moments is very poetic as well.

[voltron]

I agree that while not all of her songs are masterpieces, there is something poetic or literary to many of them.

From what was mentioned already, I agree that Connected is a great example. Other examples that come to mind:
- Endless Sorrow: Other than just being beautiful and introducing the one-winged theme that she would re-use many times later, it is a direct reference to the classic Chinese poem "The Song of Everlasting Sorrow" which is referenced in so many pieces of art, literature, etc.
- Moments: When this song came out, it was really applauded for being a modern pop piece that used Kachou Fuugetsu (Flower, Bird, Wind, Moon) which is common in Japanese poetry, and considered really artistic.

I think the Japanese language, in general, has more poetic elements to it than many other languages. So to some extent, you'll see more poetic elements in general in many songs. For example, in Memorial Address she uses the phrase "あなたは一人星になった" - "you alone became a star." This is a very common saying that is widely understood to mean someone died, just in a more beautiful, soft way.

[Kacku]

I also think that not nearly all of her songs are masterpieces or highly "poetic", but she definitely does use poetic devices and many of her songs are very poetic in the more abstract sense.

About some of the songs mentioned:

- I think A Song for xx is a good showcase of Ayu's ability to incorporate many kinds of poetic elements (just for the obvious things: it's got rhyme, repetition, a very deliberate and seemingly motivated structure and changes in structure that support the message/story of the song, and even some more complex things like the situational irony nalini-dahlia mentioned) while still keeping the tone simple and confessional. I think there is a lot to unpack in that song, and the fact that she wrote it so early in her career is a great testament to her talent as a songwriter.

- I think Memorial address has Ayu in more of a storyteller mode and that it's one of her best works as a storyteller. Even then, she packs some chillingly strong and poetic imagery in the lyrics. (voltron, I never knew "you alone became a star" is a common saying in Japanese! I've always found it a gut-punchingly effective phrase. I didn't know about The Song of Everlasting Sorrow either, thanks for sharing those details.)

- I'd also be interested to find any other songs like connected. The sheer amount of alliteration (and rhyme) is pretty impressive, especially when you just read the lyrics and the all-katakana verses really jump at you, and it's done without sacrificing content for form.

- I agree that Moments is very poetic (the imagery is really powerful and the words are really evocative). It also got me wondering: Moments uses the kachou fuugetsu motif, are there other songs where Ayu uses some similarly very Japanese poetic devices or motifs?

I also think Ayu is remarkably versatile as a lyricist and has the ability to be effective and poetic in many different modes: the angsty confessionals she originally became known for (A Song for XX, POWDER SNOW); the less literal, more metaphorical and poetic works (Dolls, Moments, BRILLANTE); straightforward storytelling (Memorial address); message songs (the many girl power anthems, peace anthems like a song is born and no more words); social commentary (Mad World), other categories I can't think of...

[Chibi-Chan]

First of all, thank you all for your responses, which are well thought through and there were some very interesting points!
This was actually the kind of response I was hoping for. When I said I wanted an analysis, I just wanted some examples and actual arguments and not only having to read x is y because I think x is y. Even though I would not agree on her lyrics being poetry, I enjoy her lyrics a lot and I would like to discuss her lyrics more in depth.
Sadly I have to hand in a paper by tomorrow and no time to write a longee response. I hope I will be able to do this tomorrow!

[Andrenekoi]

Originally Posted by nalini-dahlia

I'm just gonna give you a thumbs up real quick...


....on another note....

I took some pretty intense poetry classes for three straight years back when.

A few things that she uses that are at least found in poetry:

-the implementation of assonance and alliteration, thus incorporating literary aesthetics

-the use of rhyme and rhythm.

-and, yes, song lyrics are considered literature (at least according to the college I went to)

-the use of metaphors (take the sandcastlr imagery in Wake Me Up, or the mention of continual rain in Memorial Address to invoke an image and meaning), which can enter into a sort of metaphysical form at times

-some could argue that songs such as A Song for XX uses a type of situational irony in which she sings something to the effect of "I was born alone and I will always be alone," because given her high status, she is never technically alone, but even through this situation she truly is because she's emotionally alone. Take this example with a grain of salt.

I got my BA in Studio Art, and to claim that any music is NOT art is just a logical fallacy.

So does the Nobel Prize after awarding Bob Dylan

[rainbow_smile]

Lyrics being poetic and lyrics being poetry are two different things imo, and I don't see people calling them poetry nearly as often as I see them calling the lyrics poetic? Could be a language barrier issue too: people from different backgrounds assigning different meanings to the words. Also, just because it's not poetry doesn't mean her lyrics aren't art though? There are a lot of forms of art.

Originally Posted by Kacku

- I agree that Moments is very poetic (the imagery is really powerful and the words are really evocative). It also got me wondering: Moments uses the kachou fuugetsu motif, are there other songs where Ayu uses some similarly very Japanese poetic devices or motifs?

I think someone said that FLOWER uses kachou fuugetsu too, but I don't remember her mentioning the moon anywhere in the lyrics

[tokyoxjapanxfan]

I just tried accessing Divine Ayu and it seems like it’s gone.
That makes me so sad lol.
I know it hadn’t been updated, but now it’s completey gone :-(

[TeamAyu2004]

^That was my first ayu website. I use to go to it all the time. it was completely dated, but it just felt right haha

[tokyoxjapanxfan]

^ same!
Back in ‘04 that site was everything to me haha

[Deep snow]

Originally Posted by tokyoxjapanxfan

I just tried accessing Divine Ayu and it seems like it’s gone.
That makes me so sad lol.
I know it hadn’t been updated, but now it’s completey gone :-(

I tried this a couple of days ago to look up some lyrics translation, and yeah it was inaccessible.

I used to visit it literally every time I got Internet access back in the day (I lived in the third world), just to randomly browse through it. sometimes just looking at the beautiful CD scans and album booklets I didn't have.

if it's really gone for good, then it's the end of an era

[channy]

Oh no... is/was divineayu that website with "primenova" in its URL? v.v

[chocopockymaster]

Originally Posted by channy

Oh no... is/was divineayu that website with "primenova" in its URL? v.v

Yes it was an institution!!!

[Aderianu]

to Divine Ayu fans http://ahsforum.com/forum/showthread...=121200&page=2

[Deep snow]

thanks Aderianu