COMPLETE playback thread

[Andrenekoi]

Hm... just one more thing...
I would recommend to people that are not that interested in the subject to not take all these "for sure lip-synched" as truth... Don't get me wrong, but most of the statement are based on impresions and opinions, and there's no way to say if she really lip-synched anything if she doens't says that herself or does something like Angel's Song in PCDL^^

IMO is a lost of time to discuss this based on dvd performaces... they are REALLY edited in both sound and image and they can easily use 3 days of concerts on the same released performace in this format...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obrUUc5xghs
this is very evident in Hikki's Live at Budokan 2004... they use recording of 3 diferent days on the DVD (and she didn't use the same outfit all the says, so you can see she using 2 or 3 outfits in the same song) but you can say the audio is live 'cause she sang really bad in this concert ~~'

Even if they use the same live sound in two diferent recorded performaces, this doesn't mean she wasn't live on the recording day, and even if she sounded flawless in DVD, this doesn't mean she sang good in the actual day (this is really easy to notice if you compare TV versions of CDL with DVD versions)

Now, you can go on discussing, just remember... in the end, these are only opinions^^

[SunshineSlayer]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

Hm... just one more thing...
I would recommend to people that are not that interested in the subject to not take all these "for sure lip-synched" as truth... Don't get me wrong, but most of the statement are based on impresions and opinions,

Ok, but if these are all just opinions then how come after I give my opinion of what I thought was lip synched after seeing her shows in person, its not taken seriously. But then when someone else gives their opinion that they think such and such performance is really live, THAT is taken seriously. It seems to be quite a double standard around here sometimes. Also, as you mentioned there is no doubt that she has had lip synched performances that are a matter of fact, not opinion.

And what you mentioned has yes, been discussed as a possibility here. I agree, that you can't rely on dvds because of the editing, but you can get a pretty good idea from comparing tv versions to dvd versions. It's too coincidental that they would just happen to use the audio from the tv version and put it over the DVD one imo when they could easily take the audio from any concert date to do that. Why pick the audio from the tv version that they know will send out a huge red flag to the audience that the performance might be lip synched?

[Andrenekoi]

Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer

Ok, but if these are all just opinions then how come after I give my opinion of what I thought was lip synched after seeing her shows in person, its not taken seriously. But then when someone else gives their opinion that they think such and such performance is really live, THAT is taken seriously. It seems to be quite a double standard around here sometimes. Also, as you mentioned there is no doubt that she has had lip synched performances that are a matter of fact, not opinion.

And what you mentioned has yes, been discussed as a possibility here. I agree, that you can't rely on dvds because of the editing, but you can get a pretty good idea from comparing tv versions to dvd versions. It's too coincidental that they would just happen to use the audio from the tv version and put it over the DVD one imo when they could easily take the audio from any concert date to do that. Why pick the audio from the tv version that they know will send out a huge red flag to the audience that the performance might be lip synched?

I do think the lip-synchs somewhat often and there are some performaces that you don't even metioned that I'm pretty sure weren't live, and I think also that if the TV and DVD sounds are the same is because

a)she sang it well live
b)it was lip-synch

So still, we can't be 100% sure... Ayu lip-synchs much more than her biased fans think, but not so often as you all think she does in this thread... And I'm not saying this based on how much I love her or any of this crap, I just studied a little of vocal technic (still have a lot to learn, I'm just begining) and I do notice some singing mistakes in fancams or tv reports that magically disappear on DVD/latter aired on Tv versions...

[SunshineSlayer]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

So still, we can't be 100% sure... Ayu lip-synchs much more than her biased fans think, but not so often as you all think she does in this thread... And I'm not saying this based on how much I love her or any of this crap, I just studied a little of vocal technic (still have a lot to learn, I'm just begining) and I do notice some singing mistakes in fancams or tv reports that magically disappear on DVD/latter aired on Tv versions...

Well at least in this thread I don't see any lip synching allegations that I would consider completely out of left field and without merit. All of them at least have some kind of reasoning behind them. Now if someone were to say that a Who performance were lip synched or something, then I'd agree that people are going too far.

edit: new tour report I just came across that is relevant to the thread: http://ameblo.jp/komaneko7859/entry-10241434500.html
It mentions Energize and Identity seeming like they were lip synched. Energize I can understand, but identity? O.o

[Andrenekoi]

identity is choreographed, isn't it?

[SunshineSlayer]

^Maybe. I don't like her choreographing her rock songs to begin with though.

[Andrenekoi]

so... I think you should keep distance of this tour... cause it seens that all the rock songs are choreographed xD As usual on all her performaces on all ATs

[waterballoon]

lmao. The only "rock" songs in NEXT LEVEL, LOVE 'n' HATE & identity are both like choreographed... haha but they have a sick beat to it, so I'm okay with it.

At least she didn't choreograph (miss)understood in AT 06. XD

[Andrenekoi]

Originally Posted by waterballoon

lmao. The only "rock" songs in NEXT LEVEL, LOVE 'n' HATE & identity are both like choreographed... haha but they have a sick beat to it, so I'm okay with it.

At least she didn't choreograph (miss)understood in AT 06. XD

It was, but it was chorepraphed to look like it wasn't
I think that only the encore is not entirely planned

[SunshineSlayer]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

so... I think you should keep distance of this tour... cause it seens that all the rock songs are choreographed xD As usual on all her performaces on all ATs

Nah, she has plenty of her rock songs without choreography on her other tours.

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

It was, but it was chorepraphed to look like it wasn't
I think that only the encore is not entirely planned

That's true. I like when its totally not choreographed at all - it did rub me the wrong way to see that even the moves for a song for xx these days are choreographed too. But what I primarily meant is at least not having actual dance moves to it like Talkin' 2 myself, etc.

[maikaru]

Originally Posted by noidea

There are TV versions of her concert tours 2000, but both are missing the encore, but the whole concerts sound pretty live to me

And I remember now that the SURREAL~evolution~SURREAL I doubted to be live was MTV Super Dry Live

Theres something else I noticed: When watching CDL0102 TV version, evolutions seems very weird to me(the chorus) reason? It suddenly sounds like its not live-ayu singing it, she doesnt talk to the audience at all in it(very weird and only seen in playback evolutions(CDL0607, AT07, CDL0708), right? I havent watched all evolution performances, but the only ones i remember without talking to the audience were the playback ones)), but it could be a loud backing track as well, or just me seeing things...because it doesnt sound very good, but somehow better than the rest of the concert and different, stronger

Again, you can choose to believe evolution at CD0708 and AT07 is lipsync, etc.
But there is 100% no proof about evolution at AT07, and I guess CD0708 could be lipsynced or not, depending if you actually believe the evidence you created.
CDL0102 she uses a playback, and you can hear that she does, like she does in the Dome Tour. You can hear that she and the playback voice are singing together, and sometimes she ends before or after the playback.
She used playback voice in TA Tour too for the chorus of evolution.
I think she usually uses the playback voice for evolution chorus now, especially for the second chorus, with the loud yeah~
Yeah.. of course CDL0809 Angel's Song and Theme of a-nation was lipsynced at least in the TV version of the CDL0506 was lipsynced..
But I dont really understand why she lipsynced Theme of a-nation when she did not lipsync endless sorrow, and infinitely more harder song...

[noidea]

Originally Posted by maikaru

Again, you can choose to believe evolution at CD0708 and AT07 is lipsync, etc.
But there is 100% no proof about evolution at AT07, and I guess CD0708 could be lipsynced or not, depending if you actually believe the evidence you created.
CDL0102 she uses a playback, and you can hear that she does, like she does in the Dome Tour. You can hear that she and the playback voice are singing together, and sometimes she ends before or after the playback.
She used playback voice in TA Tour too for the chorus of evolution.
I think she usually uses the playback voice for evolution chorus now, especially for the second chorus, with the loud yeah~
Yeah.. of course CDL0809 Angel's Song and Theme of a-nation was lipsynced at least in the TV version of the CDL0506 was lipsynced..
But I dont really understand why she lipsynced Theme of a-nation when she did not lipsync endless sorrow, and infinitely more harder song...

If you read the first post, there I wrote that we can't say for sure evolution AT07 was synched because we don't have fancams(making some parts of your post pointless), I don't know what kind of evidence I created? I(and other people) compared the TV version of CDL0708 with AT07(and CDL0607) and came to the conclusion that it's the same, tell me how 2 performances with the same audio can both be live?
In CDL0102, shes not using a playback, shes using a backtrack because she didn't have backupsingers, however, its not the backtrack thats weird in evolution, its her voice, the "LIVE" voice is different than before and in any other song.

she used that backtrack in every concert up to the first concert with her backupsingers(I think it was A Museum?), now Peco and Princess are singing instead of that backtrack

[mi|kshake]

I think she usually uses the playback voice for evolution chorus now, especially for the second chorus, with the loud yeah~

Yeah I noticed that too - on AT08 I think - there's a backing track in the last chrous to give it that extra bit of "ooomph".

I don't mind the odd song here or there being mimed, but I'd rather it not become a more regular occurrence, especially as she said "she would "not give up" on her fans and that "as a professional", she wanted to "deliver the best performance for everyone"" (from Wikipedia btw, so how accurate it is I dunno). I much prefer live singing that on tour than on TV if that's what it comes down to. (Always kinda bug me that the music is never live on TV).

Anyway, this thread is useful to see what is actually live (and what I thought was live and wasn't). I tend to go by the rule that headmic = miming.

mi|kshake~

[maikaru]

Originally Posted by noidea

If you read the first post, there I wrote that we can't say for sure evolution AT07 was synched because we don't have fancams(making some parts of your post pointless), I don't know what kind of evidence I created? I(and other people) compared the TV version of CDL0708 with AT07(and CDL0607) and came to the conclusion that it's the same, tell me how 2 performances with the same audio can both be live?
In CDL0102, shes not using a playback, shes using a backtrack because she didn't have backupsingers, however, its not the backtrack thats weird in evolution, its her voice, the "LIVE" voice is different than before and in any other song.

she used that backtrack in every concert up to the first concert with her backupsingers(I think it was A Museum?), now Peco and Princess are singing instead of that backtrack

I'm not talking about a backing track singing the harmony or backing singers.
I'm talking about her vocals from the actual evolution track being played when she is singing the chorus too.
She duplicated her voice in Dome Tour, TA tour, etc. etc.

The audio at AT07 could have been the one which CDL0708 takes the audio starting from the second verse on from. However, there is no reason for AT07 to be considered as a lipsync, because for sure she sings the intro live for sure, and there's no reason for her to lipsync the rest of the song. And like you said, there is no live of AT07 to compare, so you cannot confirm if it is lipsync or not.

CDL0708 sounds different to me from AT07.. there are many more flat notes in CDL0708. so it's I guess your own viewpoint on the sound. Plus, there is no reason for her to lipsync it, because it doesn't even sound that good in CDL0708~~~It sounds like SURREAL vocals, and SURREAL was sooo bad.

Anyways yeah.. I am not convinced about CDL0708 evolution, because there's no point for her to have lipsynced it. I think she could have sang it the same or better live if it was a lipsync~ But yeah.. I am sure that she has lipsynced some other times before...

Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer

Ok, but if these are all just opinions then how come after I give my opinion of what I thought was lip synched after seeing her shows in person, its not taken seriously. But then when someone else gives their opinion that they think such and such performance is really live, THAT is taken seriously. It seems to be quite a double standard around here sometimes. Also, as you mentioned there is no doubt that she has had lip synched performances that are a matter of fact, not opinion.

And what you mentioned has yes, been discussed as a possibility here. I agree, that you can't rely on dvds because of the editing, but you can get a pretty good idea from comparing tv versions to dvd versions. It's too coincidental that they would just happen to use the audio from the tv version and put it over the DVD one imo when they could easily take the audio from any concert date to do that. Why pick the audio from the tv version that they know will send out a huge red flag to the audience that the performance might be lip synched?

People dont actually think that we will look very closely and try to prove lipsync etc. In reality, I think it's really stupid to do so. But..
if the TV version sounds better, then she should use the audio which sounds better, right?
Then, I think they would be justified in using TV audio.

And to answer your first question...

People here are Ayumi fans. Of course, you are too, because we had this discussion before. But people really love her, and think she is pretty much perfect. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong about that, because she herself has recognized this.
If you think about that, then of course people are going to hate you if you continue to talk about Lipsync everywhere on this forum, because in many countries lipsyncing is a bad thing, especially in Asia, which makes it out to sound like Ayu is just a bad performer, etc. even if you say that you dont mean that, etc.
Dont expect support for your ideas about lipsyncing here. It's not a double standard; it's an expectation that people come here to enjoy their love of Ayumi hamasaki, not be having to defend and worry about what things people accuse her of doing.
Even this thread might make people feel angry that their idol is being attacked like this, and by other fans..
So please dont expect the same respect when you claim she is lipsyncing through all the time, as if you were calling her a great singer.

[SunshineSlayer]

Originally Posted by maikaru

The audio at AT07 could have been the one which CDL0708 takes the audio starting from the second verse on from. However, there is no reason for AT07 to be considered as a lipsync, because for sure she sings the intro live for sure, and there's no reason for her to lipsync the rest of the song.

She does a lot of movement in the song, including that very high kick to the side. As I mentioned earlier, when something like AT07 and CDL0708 Evolution sounding the same happens, it is way to coincidental to me. Every date of every tour for any artist has a soundboard recording, so why choose to use the same sound for both the AT07 and CD0708? All that does is raise suspicion when they could just as easily take the evolution audio from any concert date and put it over CDL0708 - nobody would suspect then. However, they didn't do that which makes me think that likely all the evolution AT07 performances were playback.

I actually did a comparison of the two performances a while back - I had both videos playing at the same time and tried playing one line from AT07 and then the same line from CDL 07/08 - I did that at various parts of the songs and they are indeed exactly the same - no difference at all.

Originally Posted by maikaru

People here are Ayumi fans. Of course, you are too, because we had this discussion before. But people really love her, and think she is pretty much perfect. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong about that, because she herself has recognized this.
If you think about that, then of course people are going to hate you if you continue to talk about Lipsync everywhere on this forum, because in many countries lipsyncing is a bad thing, especially in Asia, which makes it out to sound like Ayu is just a bad performer, etc. even if you say that you dont mean that, etc.
Dont expect support for your ideas about lipsyncing here. It's not a double standard; it's an expectation that people come here to enjoy their love of Ayumi hamasaki, not be having to defend and worry about what things people accuse her of doing.
Even this thread might make people feel angry that their idol is being attacked like this, and by other fans..
So please dont expect the same respect when you claim she is lipsyncing through all the time, as if you were calling her a great singer.

And this is what I don't understand about you. You are the one that always says you don't want these things discussed on the forum, so we actually create a thread to do it but yet YOU come in here and still continue to argue about it. It seems that you are the one that has the issue here, not me. And if you think I talk about lip syncing everywhere on the forum, then you are only selectively reading my posts.

She herself has recognized that she is perfect? That's news to me. Honestly, even though you seem nice, you often come off as an over zealous fan that can't think objectively. Many things that you say do not sound rational and you often make huge leaps. Like instead of going from point A to point B, you jump all the way to conclusion Z. Like if people say she may have lip synced a song, that automatically leads to you thinking people hate her and therefore you dislike those forum users and seem to go into personal crusade mode. Why shouldn't people here discuss lip synching if they want to or other issues that might be seen as critical of Ayu? What's the point of even having a discussion forum then? Also the fact that you even said yourself that only agreeable opinions will be respected and those that are less agreeable won't be, proves a double standard.

And if you see this as people "attacking" Ayu, it's because that is how you choose to see it. If you think lip synching makes her look like a "bad performer", that is once again, how you choose to see it because nobody here has said anything like that. As was stated at the start of this thread, this is not meant to be about lipsynching being good or bad, but once again you came in and chose to make it about being good or bad.
I think you think that Ayu is too perfect and anything that might make her a little less perfect (ie, human) you simply can't seem to handle. And if you can't handle it, then once again, why even bother replying to the topics that you don't like? Isn't it just a waste of energy?

whew that became very long! I hope nothing that I said was hurtful, because I don't mean it to be - its just simply my observation of how you tend to react.

[Andrenekoi]

If you think about that, then of course people are going to hate you if you continue to talk about Lipsync everywhere on this forum

This is a very good point Sunshine Slayer... noidea openned this thread to discuss this, and more people will dislike to see this subject in other parts of the forum because of this. I know you don't do this to piss her fans off, but people are tired of this subject, and who is not is posting here too... I'm not trying to offend you or to bash you or anything like that, but if people are not interested in knowing if ayu is singing live or if she isn't and you keep bringing this on over and over again... well, as maikaru said, people will hate you.

I think that you have the right of discussing this, but other users have the right of getting bothered with this too... I sugest that you keep this subject here^^"

[spanishfan]

I can't help too much but i think if you put the non-lipsync song in green (SeaGreen) it would be better because its hard see the diference between unknown and live. Red is good for lipsync.

I also hate lipsync songs... i prefer she had the worst voice but see her effort (i know this thread is not to discuss if it's good or not to do lipsync, just i agree with some people that comment about it)
Well, I want to know what songs are live and what lipsync, because i love to heard her concerts, only heard because i prefer live sound instead studio recordered so, i want to know what songs are true live.

(OMG its too late so i've made so many mistakes writing english... sorry u.u)

[SunshineSlayer]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

This is a very good point Sunshine Slayer... noidea openned this thread to discuss this, and more people will dislike to see this subject in other parts of the forum because of this.

The only other place this is being brought up is the Next Level tour thread and I was not the only one. I stated what I thought was lip synched and gave my reasons and that was it - it was others that insisted on continuing to bring it up. No one is forcing anyone to read or get involved in this thread or others like it. And if people actually hate other people for discussing a relevant topic (and its really such a stupid small thing to hate anyone over), then that's just sad.

Often times I'm not the one that actually brings this up, but if someone wants to discuss about a certain issue it seems ridiculous to stop them from doing so unless it is something lewd/uncalled for. I don't go around telling people on the forum what they can and can't talk about even if I don't like it. And I agree, it should mainly stay in this thread, but it should at least be mentioned in threads that are relevant such as the Next Level tour thread.

[pommy48]

oh just watched Moments at Kouhaku yesterday, and is that song live?

[Andrenekoi]

Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer

The only other place this is being brought up is the Next Level tour thread and I was not the only one. I stated what I thought was lip synched and gave my reasons and that was it - it was others that insisted on continuing to bring it up. No one is forcing anyone to read or get involved in this thread or others like it. And if people actually hate other people for discussing a relevant topic (and its really such a stupid small thing to hate anyone over), then that's just sad.

Often times I'm not the one that actually brings this up, but if someone wants to discuss about a certain issue it seems ridiculous to stop them from doing so unless it is something lewd/uncalled for. I don't go around telling people on the forum what they can and can't talk about even if I don't like it.

This is relevant for you, what does not mean it is for everyone... It's like the plastic surgeries thing... People doesn't care if this is discussed once or twice... but every concert thread in some time have a lip-synch comment... usually by you... It's your right wanting to talk about this, but people are getting tired of this subject... I'm not trying to say where you can or can't post...