Lets vent about ayu?/why did your fandom decrease

[adantatu2]

^ Exactly !!! And honestly the PV was trying to be "funny", that's all.

[Zeke.]

Originally Posted by Yumi(e)

And this:

was fake xD

Lmao, wtf. I died at the way this sentence is structured and expressed.

[Zeke.]

Originally Posted by adantatu2

^ Exactly !!! And honestly the PV was trying to be "funny", that's all.

Yes that was intentions, but I remember a while back discussion over scandals such as every racial culture getting upset when their icons are used for purely artistic purposes and without regard for the history or nature of such symbols. I was told that intention doesn't rule out insult.

[Andrenekoi]

There's a huge diference between portraying important aspects of someone's culture on a rude/ignorant way and portraying something that isn't really part of any culture on a way people from a different culture than yours missunderstand. But of course fat weeabos get offended once they are reminded they are fat weeabos...

[Yumi(e)]

Maybe because overweight people already have enough of that around to tease, and now her/his favorite artist do the same (or he/she felt as if)
It is a delicate issue, because a Japanese or Spanish will not get a disease because their country is represented in an absurd or wrong way (chinese jokes for japanese, olé and sevillanas for spanish); however an overweight and low self-esteem can develop an eating disorder.
But of course, they are "fat weeabos" so whatever.

[channy]

Criticizing obese people is not okay, remaining obese, either. Having other people pay your medicinal therapies because of diseases that derive from obesity (in case your country has a Statutory Health Insurance) is just as bad as smoking cigarettes or taking drugs. Some people do not realize that their undisciplined way of living is not just hurting themselves but the society in general.

If Ayu was to state such an opinion, I bet lots of people were likely to freak out. I beg you, Ayu. Don't have real human points of view or thoughts. Always please, never be the real thing, keep constructing your answers.

Perhaps Ayu hates the audience/fans for being that hypocritical. Just that she does not dare to voice it. Keep smiling, the rest happens behind the curtains, tehe.

[Yumi(e)]

OT:

Spoiler:

Well, being obese isn't always a result of eating junk food, sometimes it's a thyroid problem or even depression, there isn't something you choose, like smoking or drugs.

This PV was one reason why I felt disappointed with ayu, if she was to talk about being positive and change for yourself, I'd not chosen that ending nor that way... So plastic and empty for me, like every PV she do lately.
And I don't think her fans are hypocrites, she is criticized for her opinions/actions not for being herself.

[Earth_maiden]

I'm obese, and the PV didn't offend me. Some people's opinions here are pretty offensive, if I took them to heart. But at the end of the day, it's just one PV of an average song, it won't make me like Ayu any less. I just don't see why some people (in society) think its okay to yell obscenities and abuse at a fat person walking down the street, but would never yell abuse at someone smoking or drinking. If they're just as bad as each other, why don't people treat them the same?

[Andrenekoi]

Originally Posted by Yumi(e)

Maybe because overweight people already have enough of that around to tease, and now her/his favorite artist do the same (or he/she felt as if)
It is a delicate issue, because a Japanese or Spanish will not get a disease because their country is represented in an absurd or wrong way (chinese jokes for japanese, olé and sevillanas for spanish); however an overweight and low self-esteem can develop an eating disorder.
But of course, they are "fat weeabos" so whatever.

actually, there are tons of problems caused by wrongly representing other people's cultures, from low self-steem agressive guys harrassing asian girls, people having problems with the police because their group is perceived as criminals, muslim people being harrassed for being "terrorists", rape cases against women from certain cultures being seen as not a big deal, etc. So, those missconceptions on a large scale can lead to violence, rape, prision and even death.

And if you are obese you most likely already have a eating desorder, as compulsive eating falls on that too... If that's the case it's not up to Ayu, but to doctors and psicologists to help you.

Btw, this is all coming from someone who is 30kg overweight himself.

[Yumi(e)]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

actually, there are tons of problems caused by wrongly representing other people's cultures, from low self-steem agressive guys harrassing asian girls, people having problems with the police because their group is perceived as criminals, muslim people being harrassed for being "terrorists", rape cases against women from certain cultures being seen as not a big deal, etc. So, those missconceptions on a large scale can lead to violence, rape, prision and even death.

And if you are obese you most likely already have a eating desorder, as compulsive eating falls on that too... If that's the case it's not up to Ayu, but to doctors and psicologists to help you.

Btw, this is all coming from someone who is 30kg overweight himself.

Oh, so everybody who has overwheight it's for eating desorder, right?
Thanks for that wrongly information.

Come on. Now if I'm fat I have the obligation to excercise until I remedy this, right? Even if I haven't health problems, but of course, everyone who sees an overweight person has the (wrong) idea you have health problems.
But well, as something you can change, you should do it, right?

That's the mentality I don't fit. Ayu has always said "love yourself for who you are, no matter what", but it seems that now we need to add "unless you're fat, then try your best to change it" and everyone here accept it without criticism because, hey! is their culture and mentality, not be hypocritical and don't criticize her for being herself.

Okay...

[arg! I can't explain in english, sorry for the misspelling or whatever I write wrong xD]

[Andrenekoi]

Originally Posted by Yumi(e)

Oh, so everybody who has overwheight it's for eating desorder, right?
Thanks for that wrongly information.

Come on. Now if I'm fat I have the obligation to excercise until I remedy this, right? Even if I haven't health problems, but of course, everyone who sees an overweight person has the (wrong) idea you have health problems.
But well, as something you can change, you should do it, right?

That's the mentality I don't fit. Ayu has always said "love yourself for who you are, no matter what", but it seems that now we need to add "unless you're fat, then try your best to change it" and everyone here accept it without criticism because, hey! is their culture and mentality, not be hypocritical and don't criticize her for being herself.

Okay...

[arg! I can't explain in english, sorry for the misspelling or whatever I write wrong xD]

The girl still is fat after the PV ended, so what are your arguments about ayu being "hypocrital"?

And yeap, generally speaking obese people do have problem with compulsive eating, people who get obese because of hormone disorders are a minority. That's why most of the time bariatric surgery pacients get obese again, as they still have untreated problems with compulsive eating.

[marty]

I hated Feel the love PV, and I said so, many times, because I just hated it that much. But inside I see nothing fat-shaming. If anything, I finally saw a fat girl portayed as a happy, energetic and charming human being. The guy's reactions are opinable, but he's not the focus point of the PV, she is.
Honestly, her charisma was the only thing that made that PV bearable, for me. That, and the echo of a very nice idea that went downhill, because of a low budget I suppose...

Originally Posted by Delicious n Bold

Lately I've been thinking of another reason.
I think it has to do with jpop in general tbh. It feels as if most albums aren't sonically consistent and are just messes. Sometimes I think beyonce was right when she said that people don't make albums anymore and just release quick lil singles. You know, they put one out then burn out then put one out then burn out. The albums seem like afterthoughts. And even if they don't have 'singles' (party queen), they're still a kinda mess. Albums like duty and even sweet 19 blues (the consistent trashy lounge music) are really albums I gravitate to these days in terms of jpop. Also rainbow, ASfXX, and feel. All these albums feel completely (or nearly) consistent. Except for feel, which is just a lyrical mess at times. The opening song does NOT set the mood for the album. First talking about her lover then dumping him then sex then dumping again. A mess. But sonically it's great.
Love again was so incohesive even though I liked it at first. Maybe it's a reason why almost erryone loved love songs because that album is basically quite cohesive. Ayu's last best album? It's such a nice album I think. And the photoshoot! It's the same old same old done quite nicely. Love again was overkill, like 99,999 in FFX overkill.

Very interesting. I agree with a lot of things you wrote: as much as I still like albums, I feel like consistency is no longer a priority, and I can't quite decide if it's a very important issue or just the musical approach changin because it was bound to happen.

[marty]

^
Mh... actually, you're right on a lot of things.
Especially saying there are FAR worse things to worry about than people being fat (which can mean EVERYTHING, because really, one can be fat in various degrees and not every single one of them is dangerous for their health, and I really doubt society is SO touched by it anyway).
But I still don't see how they make fun of her. I mean, I see how they try to make the video funny, but not really at her expense.
If I got your opinion right, I think you mean they are trying to show fat people can be happy, like it's supposed they usually aren't. I don't know if that was the purpose behind it, I personally was just glad I saw a person with a different appearence behaving just normally, for a change (much like I enjoyed a lot Woman's World video by Cher, because it displayed a lot of variety of women having fun in the same way).

[emi♡]

Can we just agree that the PV had shit execution and stop talking about fat people.


Actually, I think that's the bigger problem anyways. Ayu always has these grand ideas for things, and can never execute them properly.

Another reason why people get disappointed with her.

[kinix]

For people who thinks that the PV is offensive to obese people, have you guys read about the witch theory? Somebody pointed out that the main character is a witch and ayu is her idol. Now you might be saying, what's the point of having a fat girl in the PV then? But in my view, I'm thinking it's so great that they choose this girl as the main character. They've proven that a obese person could star as a lead in a pv. It's just up to the individual mind to think whether it's offensive or not.
same theory with a glass half full or a glass half empty.

[emi♡]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

A) Yeap, you are not fat. Please, don't tell fat people how should they feel about something until you are a fat person yourself.

No, no one should be telling anyone else how to feel about anything.

Fat people are not a hive mind lol

@emi♡
I like the PV execution, it really works with the trend of making pop music simpler.

but it also makes her seem inconsiderate and offends people. So. Some negative trade-offs there maybe lol

I didn't see the PV as offensive to overweight people in the end after we got the full thing. I was more concerned with the idea that the main character decides that being dishonest about who you are is just fine.

It's like, "oh haha no, I'm not who I am, but it's okay! It's not like there's man bits between my legs or anything........AS FAR AS YOU KNOW I CAN DO MAGIC REMEMBER."

[primavera♥]

Omg. People stay trippin bout this pv. I can't lol. It's so basic, it's not even that serious. Some of the arguments for it being offensive are kind of irrelevant because it would make other things offensive when they aren't. And neither is this. But that's a totally different topic. You can start a thread on fat - shaming in the general chat room.

[Andrenekoi]

^^Was there any bad feedback from her japanese public?

[Chibi-Chan]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

A) Yeap, you are not fat. Please, don't tell fat people how should they feel about something until you are a fat person yourself.

B) Again, this is very simplistic, anorexia existed way before the thin-as-a-stick beauty standart and surprisingly animals shows similar disorders.

C) "White savior complex" has nothing to do with nazi and all to do with white european/american people shoving their perceptions of culture and human relation down the throats of "lesser" cultures trying to save them of themselves. Ayumi is not white, nor is she european/american or even western, you can't analize her body of wotk without taking in consideration her point of view will mirror her culture on the same way your point of view is a mirror of yours. The "retarded" thing (I'm not going even to complain about the ableist language) you repeated through your explaination of how the video made fun of the girl by itself ignore cultural context, as exageration of physical and facial expression is a VERY common aspect of japanese humor, even on Ayu's body of work (Beautiful Fighters, cutesy performances), what you are calling "portraying her as retarded" I call "playing with japanese humour troupes".

And I'm not saying to women how they should feel about this or that portrait they have on media, it's not my place doing that. On the same way it's not my place to say how japanese people should produce their creative projects aimed to japanese people on a way that don't make western people sad. I'm sorry you got offended because I said you shouldn't talk for people that can talk for themselves (and there were several fat people over here giving their impressions, not all of them offended) about experiences you never really had. But the thing is, you shouldn't.

@emi♡
I like the PV execution, it really works with the trend of making pop music simpler.

First of all, I don't have to be fat to say discriminating someone because they are fat isn't ok. And just because there are fat people who don't feel offended makes it any less offensive in some parts.
There are also women saying that men hitting women is ok and the right of a man. Does it make domestic violence any more legit? No.
In the same way just because there are fat people who don't feel offended by stereotype portrayed fat people makes it any more legit to reproduce the stereotype of the dumb, lazy, ugly weirdo fat people are often discriminated as.
And I find it not ok that those people who said they felt personally offended were told "it's no big deal".

Second the PV has nothing to do with japanese culture despite the fact that it's coming from a japanese popstar. By the way, japanese culture counts in many aspects to western culture and Ayu was aiming with the PV at american sitcoms and portrayed a fat girl the exact same way as sitcoms do.
The "white savior complex" thing really doesn't work here because the whole fat shaming topic is about how western cultures (Japan included), discriminate fat people and tell especially women (and it's all about a woman in the PV) to be as thin as possible. Since I'm a woman myself I have every right to critizes how people react on fat women or what they consider a fat woman. Like I said I'm not fat, but I was never as thin as those models and therefore called fat (another reason why I don't have to be fat to know what it feels like to be discriminated for being "fat"). I know exactly what it feels like to be valued by body shape and not being able to wear size zero. There are many aspects why this is not a "japanese people's" topic but a "women's topic" but I would never tell you not to state your opinion just because you're a man and you don't know how this whole cult of thinnes and obsession with beauty constantly discriminating every woman who doesn't fit in the category "sweet little princess" feels like.

If people don't agree with me on this topic I can live with that, discussions are often all about agreeing not to agree. But that you are constantly trying to say that my opinion doesn't matter is intolerant.

[Andrenekoi]

^
1 - You CAN state your opinion (and anyone can disagree with it), and you can even tell fat people how they should feel about this or that (something you DID), but freedom of speech also means I can disagree with you and point out that you are not the world wide referee for fat people subjects, even if you feel entitled to be it. On the same way that's not my place as a "white" male how non-white women should feel about racism and sexism, even because not everyone from those groups will agree on what is or isn't problematic. Once you do that you are always silencing the own group's thought of it. And please, don't compare comedy videos featuring fat people to domestic violence.

2 - The PV message would be "being fat is not ok" is the girl wasn't fat anymore when it ended and she got the guy... She was still fat, just better dressed, more confident on herself and acting less ackward. This is actually very, VERY common (and very common in Japan with the whole otaku subculture): A person that can't really socialize or date someone because they have poor social skills and blame their appearence on it.

3 - And nops, you don't know how is it like to be a fat person because you were called fat once or twice on the same way I don't know how is it like to suffer with sexism because I was sexual harrassed once or twice (and yeap, I was, 2 weeks ago the last time). Once people start looking disgusted at you in public, once you can't buy clothes because stores don't sell stuff that fit your body, once strangers bash and bully you based on what are you eating, once someone you are not even interested in tells you "if you lose 2 or 3 kg I would date you", once those stuff happens to you daily or almost daily, you don't know how is it to be discriminated against for being fat.

4 - Again: The "acting weird" thing (that is just overacting) is very common in japanese humour, the facial expressions and poses the girl did during the video aren't that different from japanese comedy shows or humour scenes on animes and mangas.

5 - Even if the PV is based on sitcoms and rom-coms, it still is a japanese produced by and for japanese people, and this can't be ignored just because you feel entitled to ignore cultural context. Unlike American (and now European) culture, Japanese culture don't believe on the "you are born special" thing, they believe effort is the only way to get your way (and that's why I compared Superman to Goku). The girl on the video isn't just some "fat and beautiful special snow flake", she needs to get out of her confort zone to get the confidence to go after the guy she likes. It's pretty clear on the video she started exercizing to get "fit and beautiful" for the guy, but she gets confident enough to do it without losing weight.

6 - Starting a character as a strawman for easy laughts and flashing them out with the advancement of the narrative to make them sympathetic, likeable and releatable is a common narrative structure. The girl, who starts lazy and sedentary gets the viewer cheering for her more and more as she overcome her obstacles and stop caring about changing for the love of others and starts loving herself. You can take the "bad" parts out of the video context all you want, they are still part of a narrative, they still go from point A to point B, and you can't analyse the video intention ignoring either point A or B.

And I'm not saying your opinion is irrelevant, I'm saying you are not spokeperson for fat people and has no right to tell them/us how to feel about anything on the same way I have no right to tell women how they should feel about this or that. Limit yourself to state your opinions as opinions.